Searching through the archives of this list, and other TextMate-related materials, I've seen that this has come up a handful of times, but not in a while, and rarely with much of any response, so I'll ask again:
Why does TextMate lack any sort of single-project/multi-window functionality (the most functional and common implementation being arbitrary split panes within the editor windows, as in jEdit, Emacs, Xcode, Visual Studio, et multi al.)? Is there any intention of adding such functionality (in the near future)?
I have a hard time imagining how a programmer-centric editor can largely ignore the need of developers to have simple and effective ways to view and edit several documents in the same project simultaneously. Interfaces and implementations, interfaces and clients, refactoring source and destination, etc., etc. I recognize that it is possible to view multiple documents at once, as in any standard document-based app, using multiple windows. However, files opened to separate windows fail to integrate with the project-file functionality and multi-document (tab) organization around which TextMate is built, and, most of all, require heavy use of the dreaded Mouse to do much of anything. I have a hard time imagining how the developers work on this very 30+ KLC app, itself, without the ability to deftly maneuver many files with keyboard alone, and to see more than one thing at a time. The addition of features like cmd-T speaks directly the significance of keyboard navigation of large projects, but in such projects, what on earth are we to do with our widescreen or multi-monitor setups if we can only use one pane? There's only so much of my screen real-estate I could ever allocate to Safari and OmniOutliner to read documentation and keep a to-do list, when the primary thing I need is to keep my head inside my code.
I apologize for the rather desperate, frustrated tone creeping up underneath this message -- it's just the type of desperation that could only be created by frequent attempts to use an absolutely glorious, is-everything-I-could-dream-of app, perpetually foiled by a single, fatal (and bizarrely unique, among programmer's editors) flaw in just one small aspect of its implementation which completely prevents me from doing anything more than diddling around and getting frustrated, time and again. Not to mention from forking over the $50 -- nay $100 I would honestly love to pay for this program, if only I could actually use it.
The problem is, I greatly appreciate everything that is TextMate. The core idea -- that other editors on OS X just feel wrong -- echoes my sole problem since coming [back] to the platform. And TextMate really does feel right. Oh so right. I just can't actually use it for anything, since I can't quickly, cleanly, and effectively (i.e. with the keyboard, without endlessly mucking about with window sizes and placements) operate on and navigate large multi-file software projects.
I understand that TextMate is a focused, relatively small undertaking compared to mammoth editor-beasts like Emacs, or even jEdit these days -- that that is not only the reality of a single-developer project, but the goal. But I can't imagine that at least rudimentary split panes (or some functionally similar interface feature) could possibly be nearly as implementation-heavy as many of the features that seem to be coming every few weeks. You have this nice, object-oriented text view you've created, which can be instantiated many times over (in separate windows) just fine -- why not allow multiple instantiations within sub-windows, using Apple's standard split pane widgets? The key thing which complicates this, of course, is the focus on tabs, and while it's true that there doesn't seem to be an obvious, elegant solution to the problem of tabs for multiple panes, I think those of us who really feel the need for mouse-free management of multiple document views would gladly live with pretty tabs which have to shut themselves off when a window is split into multiple panes, at least until a better solution can be made. After all, tabs are a rather mouse-centric interface element, anyway, as indicated by the enthusiastic introduction of the new cmd-T file open/switch feature.
So there we have it. If you can't tell, I've been stewing over this for several months. Now, what are the chances? Is this even on the drawing board? Is there anything I or anyone else could do to help it along (like [not] sending more long, love-lorn emails)?
Is anyone else -- besides me and the 2 people who asked after this feature here and on the wiki in the fall -- interested in panes? If not, how on earth do you work with multiple text files simultaneously? I'd really like to know, because hopefully I'm just totally missing something that will improve my [working] life forever.
Much love to the creator and users of this fantastic app. And don't worry, I'm putting my straight jacket back on as we speak, and heading to bed in my padded, white room.
Why does TextMate lack any sort of single-project/multi-window functionality (the most functional and common implementation being arbitrary split panes within the editor windows, ....
Is anyone else -- besides me and the 2 people who asked after this feature here and on the wiki in the fall -- interested in panes? If not, how on earth do you work with multiple text files simultaneously?
I'm confused by the request. One piece talks about many files, one project (the end). For this, I use the 'project drawer'. Start a new project. Add the folders that I am working with (the drawer automatically finds the enclosed files). Now as I click on files in the hierarchy, they appear as tabs. You can flip between them using Ctrl-Opt-Arrow. It works pretty well... My only complaint is that the drawer remembers state oddly. If you add a folder and want to omit a subfolder (in my case because there are 1,500 data files in it), TM will add it back when it refreshes; other times when it refreshes the folders close up. But Allan is aware of these annoyances...
The other piece asks for split views of the same document. I think BBEdit had this, but I used the functionality about once a month. If I need to jump between subroutines, there are a number of 'jump to function' commands that are competing in the TM svn repository. The project I'm working on now is broken up into a bunch of modules that are in different files anyway. I have been learning how fantastically indispensable the "Find in Project" command is.
- Eric
Why does TextMate lack any sort of single-project/multi-window functionality (the most functional and common implementation being arbitrary split panes within the editor windows, as in jEdit, Emacs, Xcode, Visual Studio, et multi al.)? Is there any intention of adding such functionality (in the near future)?
I would also love to see this feature.
E
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Edmund Harriss Queen Mary, University of London edmund.harriss@mathematicians.org.uk http://www.mathematicians.org.uk/eoh
The revolution will not show you pictures of Nixon blowing a bugle and leading a charge by John Mitchell, General Abrams and Spiro Agnew to eat hog maws confiscated from a Harlem sanctuary. The revolution will not be televised.
Gil Scott-Heron 1949- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Edmund Harriss wrote:
Why does TextMate lack any sort of single-project/multi-window functionality (the most functional and common implementation being arbitrary split panes within the editor windows, as in jEdit, Emacs, Xcode, Visual Studio, et multi al.)? Is there any intention of adding such functionality (in the near future)?
I would also love to see this feature.
Me three!
And I think that making the tabs detachable would grealy facilitate this. Check out how Adium does it (2mb):
http://www.factorycity.net/tmp/adium_detachable_tabs.mpeg.mov
Chris
On 14 mars 05, at 19:43, Chris Messina wrote:
Me three!
And I think that making the tabs detachable would grealy facilitate this. Check out how Adium does it (2mb):
Yep, Adium handle tabs nicely. BTW, having multi-documents split panel, will make us close of a good diff feature, which, as some of you might know ;) , I'd really like to see.
If we're voting, get me a ballot. I'd love a split-pane feature. For me it's multiple documents more than single, but I can see the need for both. I like the tabs, but there are times when having everything right in front of you is imperative.
hehe. Ditto.
Multi-file splits are very handy for (Objective-)*C(++)* development. Quickly switch between function declarations and definitions is invaluable to me.
Even so. Not like I'm complaining. TextMate is still a fine editor without them :-)
-Corey On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:59:03 -0800, Joshua Thorin Messer messer@ironmantis.com wrote:
If we're voting, get me a ballot. I'd love a split-pane feature. For me it's multiple documents more than single, but I can see the need for both. I like the tabs, but there are times when having everything right in front of you is imperative.
-- Joshua Thorin Messer messer@networxonline.com ______________________________________________________________________ For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
To be absolutely clear, the thing I really think is critical is multiple documents. Multiple views of a single document is very useful, but I can survive without it (at least knowing that it's coming in the longer-run). But having a way to manage "windows" (panes in a single window being the way we're talking about) for multiple separate files in the same project -- and to switch the contents of each "window" quickly, with the keyboard (like cmd-T, or ctrl-x,b in emacs land) -- is absolutely critical.
And I'm not really sure where the "multi-project" idea came from -- I didn't mean to imply that programmers always work on more than one project at a time, in multiple panes, as that's certainly not the case for anyone I know.
As for just using a single window on a project and switching between tabs with the keyboard, as was suggested by the first response: what do you do with all your leftover screen real estate? My TextMate windows are only about 2/5ths the width of my PowerBook screen at ~85 columns (or 1/4th the width of my 1920x1200 desktop display), and when editing source, there's really no need to make the windows much wider. I've bought lots of display area for a reason: I find using it all to be a huge productivity boost, *especially* when programming.
After sending the message last night, though, I did think of an inelegant but very simple short-term solution I think would be at least acceptable (for my uses, anyway):
Adding the ability to open multiple copies of the same project window.
Speaking for myself, if I could clone the project window (or just manually "open" the tmproj file more than once), it still would be somewhat of a pain to position and resize each "pane" of text initially, but once it was done, I could achieve all the advantages of statically arranged panes, quickly switching between documents with cmd-T on each window.
Of course, if the code can support multiple views on the same data (projects and files), I have a hard time imagining this being much easier than just adding panes in the first place. But if it is easier for some reason, I'm all for it, both as a stop-gap solution to the need for multiple views on our work, and for the added UI generality for applications like using multiple monitors of differing pixel dimensions (where you couldn't effectively span a single window).
And thanks to everyone for taking a rather insane post and reponding quickly and politely, with a real discussion. I should have assumed this would be such a nice community. -jrk
On Mar 14, 2005, at 7:48, Jonathan Ragan-Kelley wrote:
Searching through the archives of this list, and other TextMate-related materials, I've seen that this has come up a handful of times, but not in a while, and rarely with much of any response
Unless you want an ETA (which I'm not too keen on providing) then the fact that I've added the feature request to my to-do is really all the response you need.
Why does TextMate lack any sort of single-project/multi-window functionality
I know it's not what you asked for, but you can control-click the files in the project drawer and open these in new windows.
Is there any intention of adding such functionality (in the near future)?
Yes. I need to get the new syntax system completed, I hope beta 6 will be out this week, then a few betas will follow where the main thing is still syntax/scope/style sheet/selector/behavior related, and after that I intend to redo the project window/drawer, where split views is likely to be one of the enhancements.
[...] I have a hard time imagining how the developers work on this very 30+ KLC app, itself, without the ability to deftly maneuver many files with keyboard alone and to see more than one thing at a time.
I only use the keyboard for navigation. I open new files mostly with cmd-T, go to header/source, or with the project wide search if I need to find the declaration of a class/function (I have function prototypes written so that I can search for these w/o getting a function call as a false positive).
When I need to work/see things in different sources, I arrange the tabs so I can go back/forth between them with option-cmd-left/right, and if it's in the same source, I use bookmarks.
[...] foiled by a single, fatal (and bizarrely unique, among programmer's editors) flaw in just one small aspect of its implementation which completely prevents me from doing anything more than diddling around and getting frustrated, time and again.
As Chris correctly stated, each user has his own thing that he thinks is a crucial show-stopper. To loosely quote from some of the private letters I've received recently:
“your editor is the only one in the whole world without native ftp support” “some of the fundamental features missing: [ list of items ]” “Asian Language is the basic requirement of a text editor for 200 billion CJK people” “a combination of the following prevent me from using this application [ list of items ]” “with significant improvements on the syntax system I might consider purchasing your application”
And this is just a fraction of what I get, the list of actual letters/requests and the list of what I would like to do with TextMate is starting to get absurdly long, and unfortunately I do not have access to a master switchboard where I can just enable and disable features as I please -- they all require work, planning and probably most importantly; motivation!
[...] But I can't imagine that at least rudimentary split panes (or some functionally similar interface feature) could possibly be nearly as implementation-heavy as many of the features that seem to be coming every few weeks.
I understand that development priorities can seem unintuitive when you only see the results coming out and see that whatever you'd hoped would appear didn't, and you think that this can't possibly be that big a deal to implement -- here are some things to remember:
• that something is simple doesn't make it more likely to be implemented, I have so many “simple” items on my to-do that if I only did these, I would never get any of the complex things done, • that something appears simple is not always the same is it actually is simple, this depends a lot on how I designed the underlying parts that this feature builds on, • some “simple” items get attached to more complex rewrites and thus is indirectly not simple, • even though I sell it for money, TextMate is my hobby and not my job, so at least 50% of the work I do with it should be done because I find it interesting or find the result desirable.
The last point is probably what counts. If TextMate was my job and my work assignments were dictated solely by user requests, I'd quit my job -- it's that simple ;) This doesn't mean that I don't du requests, it just means I need to do them in my own time, so to speak. E.g. with regard to split views, I'm not adding this to the current implementation of the project window because I'd much rather redo the entire thing and take care of all the shortcomings in one shot, but this will have to wait till after I'm done with the current project, which is improving the syntax system.
Is there anything I or anyone else could do to help it along (like [not] sending more long, love-lorn emails)?
While I do read all feedback (and appreciate most ;) ), repeating a request that I've already acknowledged doesn't boost its priority.
I certainly don't lack things to do with regard to TextMate, and I think user requests should be treated equally, even when one user is more vocal than another ;)
Been observing this thread and just can't keep my mouth shut any more. So here goes, and although I hope Allan might agree with one or two of my views/points here, these are purely my personal views and thoughts. So don't blame Allan for them :)
1. Welcome to the best Code Editor on the Mac ever, Jonathan Ragan-Kelley (& some others), as I can only assume you are recent TM user(s). Those of us that have been using TM since v1.0 - back in September '04 - know that what Allan has done to improve TM since then is nothing short of fantastic!! Now, I'm not saying this to get a brown nose, or on behalf of Allan, or anything like it. It is simply the truth and as such it should be made clear to the new-comers. So please let us all know what and where TM can and needs to be improved in a nice manner and then sit back and relax. If your request has any merit I'm sure it will be implemented sooner or later. I would assume that almost every single aspect of any existing code editor functionality is already on Allan's requests or to-do list, so ask if your 'feature' is already there before going about demanding it.
Note to Allan: Perhaps a slightly cleaned version of the Relase Notes could be prominently (?) displayed on the website, where new users could see the amount of progress that has been made since v1.0 ??
2. Split-view code editing: Yes, it would be nice to have, but honestly, Allan is working on far more important improvements than that. And with the keyboard navigation between open doc's, bookmarks etc, I haven't once looked for it in the past few months.
But you could buy BBEdit, which does have a simple split-view of the same document. Although dealing with the guys at BB does have it's downsides. You could propose for them to implement a Tab GUI (like TM), a User definable Syntax highlighting system (like TM), a Project hierarchy file viewer (like TMs Project Drawer) or any other item, like I did back in 2001 and many times since up until TM arrived. Now you can have a look to see how many of those user suggestions they have implemented. (The answer is NONE!! or at least none that is as useful and workable for me as TMs implementations)
Secondly, you are using Mac OS X and there is probably nothing stopping you from using both TM and Jedit/emacs (where most of your split-view requirements are fulfilled) at the same time on the same project. Use the best tool for the job at hand is a phrase that comes to mind.
3. Clients: We are all dealing with clients, whether we are employed, free-lancing, selling software etc. As such we should all be better at understanding Allan's situation, and concentrating on the good bits he's doing/done for us, rather than the "missing bit that kills the whole deal" type of BS. If Allan was 10 guys, and you proposed something to them 3 years ago, and there's still nothing done about it, then you have a right to voice your concern.
I have yet to find a good client that appreciated every bit of hard work, sweat and tears I put into their project and didn't complain about something or the other. For each silly/irritating/baseless/misplaced complaint I have received my motivation has gone down rather than up, and I know that's the same with all of us. We should therefore do our very best to treat Allan - and others like him - as we wish to be treated ourselves. I for one, appreciate every single bit of the work Allan has done on TM for all of us !!!
Finally, could someone please translate this bit for me ???
... this very 30+ KLC app...
On 15 Mar 2005, at 00:40, Allan Odgaard wrote:
• even though I sell it for money, TextMate is my hobby and not my job, so at least 50% of the work I do with it should be done because I find it interesting or find the result desirable.
Allan, TM being your hobby surprised me a bit, but then it does make perfect sense. "Only the things that you thoroughly enjoy will you perform well" I think is the saying. :)
Kind regards,
Mats
---- "TextMate, coding with an incredible sense of joy and ease" - www.macromates.com -
On Mar 14, 2005, at 5:40 PM, Allan Odgaard wrote:
And this is just a fraction of what I get, the list of actual letters/requests and the list of what I would like to do with TextMate is starting to get absurdly long, and unfortunately I do not have access to a master switchboard where I can just enable and disable features as I please -- they all require work, planning and probably most importantly; motivation!
And we're still waiting for the version that makes us our morning coffee!
Although dealing with the guys at BB does have it's downsides. You could propose for them to implement a Tab GUI (like TM), a User definable Syntax highlighting system (like TM), a Project hierarchy file viewer (like TMs Project Drawer) or any other item, like I did back in 2001 and many times since up until TM arrived.
And unlike some text editor developers I know, the BB guys will never tell you if any given feature is even being considered for inclusion, much less under active development...
William D. Neumann
"You've got Rita Marlowe in the palm of your hand." "Palm of my hand? You haven't seen Rita Marlowe..."
-- Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter?
On Mar 15, 2005, at 6:59 PM, William D.Neumann wrote:
Although dealing with the guys at BB does have it's downsides. You could propose for them to implement a Tab GUI (like TM), a User definable Syntax highlighting system (like TM), a Project hierarchy file viewer (like TMs Project Drawer) or any other item, like I did back in 2001 and many times since up until TM arrived.
Oooops. In my last message, I forgot to attribute the above quote to Mats Persson... He said it, not Alan.
William D. Neumann
"You've got Rita Marlowe in the palm of your hand." "Palm of my hand? You haven't seen Rita Marlowe..."
-- Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter?
Here's a couple of suggestions.
Anyone here familiar with Komodo (activestate)? Sadly not available for mac but very good for scripting languages (if you like an ide) for windows & linux.
A few things in particular which rock about it:
1) for perl, php, tcl etc, interactive syntax checking : uses the local interpreter to check for syntax errors & displays them (underline text red , errs in status bar) as you type. Downside: can be very slow
2) brilliant regexp composer. Similar to Kdevelops.
3) built - in python shell window. See also Kate's wonderful integrated shell. Can we have a shell window for TM sometime (maybe just in its own tab for now) ? We could set up macros or whatever to start this in IRB / whatever interactive shell we like - hell, we could run emacs inside textmate :) !
Of all these, #3 would be the most awesome for TM.
Anyone know of a similar (#2) standalone interactive regexp editor for the Mac ?
D
-----Original Message----- From: William D.Neumann [mailto:wdnx@unm.edu] Sent: Wednesday, 16 March 2005 1:11 PM To: TM Users Subject: Re: [TxMt] Split Panes: who/what/when/where/why
On Mar 15, 2005, at 6:59 PM, William D.Neumann wrote:
Although dealing with the guys at BB does have it's downsides. You could propose for them to implement a Tab GUI (like TM), a User definable Syntax highlighting system (like TM), a Project hierarchy file viewer (like TMs Project Drawer) or any other item, like I did back in 2001 and many times since up until TM arrived.
Oooops. In my last message, I forgot to attribute the above quote to Mats Persson... He said it, not Alan.
William D. Neumann
"You've got Rita Marlowe in the palm of your hand." "Palm of my hand? You haven't seen Rita Marlowe..."
-- Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter?
______________________________________________________________________ For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
On 16 mars 05, at 04:26, David Lee wrote:
Anyone know of a similar (#2) standalone interactive regexp editor for the Mac ?
Take a look at RegexPlor: http://python.net/~gherman/RegexPlor.html
On Mar 16, 2005, at 4:26, David Lee wrote:
- [...] Can we have a shell window for TM sometime (maybe just in its
own tab for now) ?
I'd love to add such a feature, unfortunately terminal emulation is a huge undertaking.
If I can persuade the iTerm authors (and maybe CocoaTech) to dual license their source code, this might be a solution. But it's unlikely I'll write such a thing myself.
I take it you can't just bung a Terminal component inside a window?
D
-----Original Message----- From: Allan Odgaard [mailto:allan@macromates.com] Sent: Wednesday, 16 March 2005 3:28 PM To: TM Users Subject: [TxMt] Terminal in TM (was: Split Panes: ...)
On Mar 16, 2005, at 4:26, David Lee wrote:
- [...] Can we have a shell window for TM sometime (maybe just in its
own tab for now) ?
I'd love to add such a feature, unfortunately terminal emulation is a huge undertaking.
If I can persuade the iTerm authors (and maybe CocoaTech) to dual license their source code, this might be a solution. But it's unlikely I'll write such a thing myself.
______________________________________________________________________ For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
On Wed, 16 Mar 14:26 (+1100), David Lee wrote:
Anyone here familiar with Komodo (activestate)? Sadly not available for mac but very good for scripting languages (if you like an ide) for windows & linux.
I used it on Windows around version 2.3 or so and also must say that I miss some features, but I also must say that TM for me works better because Komodo, IMO, lacked very important features, for example: • writing own syntax definitions is/was not possible. • it's a bit slow, don't know why it feels so, maybe because it sits on top of mozilla. • macro system was not documented. • nothing like TMs commands exists, what I still think is my favorite feature because this way I can extend TM with ruby.
- for perl, php, tcl etc, interactive syntax checking : uses the local
interpreter to check for syntax errors & displays them (underline text red , errs in status bar) as you type. Downside: can be very slow
Yes, I also liked this, but for the most languages (ruby, python, perl, etc) you can use the Syntax checking in TM, usually available via ctrl-shit-v (v for validate). This is included in the latest SVN. (svn co https://anon:anon@macromates.com/svn/Bundles/trunk/) its not that fancy but it helps.
What I BTW mostly miss is its handling of 'Smart Typing Pairs' where you have to move fore and backward in TM so get a blinking thing and in Komodo you just place you cursor near it and see the opponent highlighted red. But its not that important and I mentioned this already and so hope it will get implemented sometime in the future, when Allan has time to work on this.
Man, i wish someone had pointed out this validate thing earlier :) i gotta look through these menus again ..
I agree with all your points; i like komodo (use it at work on win') but it doesn't feel as good as TM, and is improving nowhere near as quickly
D
On 18/03/2005, at 9:14 AM, Torsten Becker wrote:
On Wed, 16 Mar 14:26 (+1100), David Lee wrote:
Anyone here familiar with Komodo (activestate)? Sadly not available for mac but very good for scripting languages (if you like an ide) for windows & linux.
I used it on Windows around version 2.3 or so and also must say that I miss some features, but I also must say that TM for me works better because Komodo, IMO, lacked very important features, for example: • writing own syntax definitions is/was not possible. • it's a bit slow, don't know why it feels so, maybe because it sits on top of mozilla. • macro system was not documented. • nothing like TMs commands exists, what I still think is my favorite feature because this way I can extend TM with ruby.
- for perl, php, tcl etc, interactive syntax checking : uses the
local interpreter to check for syntax errors & displays them (underline text red , errs in status bar) as you type. Downside: can be very slow
Yes, I also liked this, but for the most languages (ruby, python, perl, etc) you can use the Syntax checking in TM, usually available via ctrl-shit-v (v for validate). This is included in the latest SVN. (svn co https://anon:anon@macromates.com/svn/Bundles/trunk/) its not that fancy but it helps.
What I BTW mostly miss is its handling of 'Smart Typing Pairs' where you have to move fore and backward in TM so get a blinking thing and in Komodo you just place you cursor near it and see the opponent highlighted red. But its not that important and I mentioned this already and so hope it will get implemented sometime in the future, when Allan has time to work on this.
-- Torsten ______________________________________________________________________ For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
-
Allan Odgaard -
Chris Messina -
Corey O'Connor -
David Lee -
Edmund Harriss -
Eric Hsu -
Fred B. -
Jeroen van der Ham -
Jonathan Ragan-Kelley -
Joshua Thorin Messer -
Mats Persson -
Torsten Becker -
William D.Neumann