When double-clicking the middle of a word and then pressing arrow left or right, the cursor does not start from the edges of the word, but instead from the double-click position. This behavior is not consistent with NSTextView, or any Mac OS app I've ever used way back to System 6.
Shawn
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:00:04 +0000 (GMT), textmate-request@lists.macromates.com wrote:
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- Re: textmate Digest, Vol 13, Issue 71 (Shawn Van Ittersum)
- Emacs-style tab to indent line (was: [TxMt] textmate Digest, Vol 13, Issue 71) (Allan Odgaard)
- Re: Emacs-style tab to indent line (was: [TxMt] textmate Digest, Vol 13, Issue 71) (Gerd Knops)
- Rev 665 - icon gone (Jeremy Dunck)
- Re: Rev 665 - icon gone (Allan Odgaard)
- Tab Size per window (Peter Vohmann)
- Smart Home/End ( Fr?d?rik Bilhaut )
- Re: Tab Size per window (Allan Odgaard)
- Re: Smart Home/End (Allan Odgaard)
- Re: Tab Size per window (Peter Vohmann)
- Re: Tabulation of end tags (Andreas Wahlin)
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On 01/11/2005, at 10.13, Shawn Van Ittersum wrote:
When double-clicking the middle of a word and then pressing arrow left or right, the cursor does not start from the edges of the word, but instead from the double-click position. This behavior is not consistent with NSTextView, or any Mac OS app I've ever used way back to System 6.
Is there a complaint/request buried in that statement?
TextMate has NSTextView as a role model, but it's not supposed to be a carbon copy (that's the gerat thing about writing your own software: you decide how it should work!).
Preserving the caret for word/line/paragraph/all selections is by design and a feature I personally enjoy (mainly when accidentally hitting cmd-A or similar, just doing arrow left/right to “undo” is nice and IMHO intuitive).
Though my use of the feature is only in relation to keyboard initiated unit selections. So if you wanted to request that the feature was not there for mouse initiated selections, I can add it to the list.
Hi Allan,
I apologize for my tone. Sometimes I have trouble understanding the intentions of your choices. You choose not to support emacs-style tabbing because "the role-model for behavior when it comes to TextMate is NSTextView and OS X, that should go without saying!" And then when it comes to mouse actions, which are the legacy of the Mac UI experience, TextMate often diverges wildly from the expected behaviors of NSTextView and classic Mac OS.
When I first reported the double-click selection bug in July, you responded: "I rarely use the mouse myself, and certainly not for text editing." But you added that others had reported the problem and that it was on a list to be fixed, so I bought your product on good faith that you would address the issue. Yet it still remains almost four months later, while a slew a new features have been added. I appreciate these features, but it feels like you have been ignoring requests to fix fundamental mouse issues. Since you offer TextMate as "the missing editor for OS X," I ask you to please appreciate how important the mouse is for many of us who have used Macs for years. I've had to adapt my own habits to get around the mousing issues in TextMate. I've seen multiple blog postings by people who were initially amazed by your product but chose not to buy it after encountering its "quirky" behaviors. That's a shame, especially since you don't intend for these behaviors to be quirky, since you don't use the mouse for editing and presumably don't have any mousing preferences. The sooner you make these fixes, TextMate will enjoy more acceptance and even more success than it's received so far.
So yes, please add NSTextView emulation of arrow-left/right to mouse-initiated selections to the list. Also please fix the double-click extend selection bug.
Shawn
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:13:09 +0100, Allan Odgaard wrote:
On 01/11/2005, at 10.13, Shawn Van Ittersum wrote:
When double-clicking the middle of a word and then pressing arrow left or right, the cursor does not start from the edges of the word, but instead from the double-click position. This behavior is not consistent with NSTextView, or any Mac OS app I've ever used way back to System 6.
Is there a complaint/request buried in that statement?
TextMate has NSTextView as a role model, but it's not supposed to be a carbon copy (that's the gerat thing about writing your own software: you decide how it should work!).
Preserving the caret for word/line/paragraph/all selections is by design and a feature I personally enjoy (mainly when accidentally hitting cmd-A or similar, just doing arrow left/right to “undo” is nice and IMHO intuitive).
Though my use of the feature is only in relation to keyboard initiated unit selections. So if you wanted to request that the feature was not there for mouse initiated selections, I can add it to the list.
On 02/11/2005, at 0.28, Shawn Van Ittersum wrote:
I apologize for my tone. Sometimes I have trouble understanding the intentions of your choices.
I think you mixup choices and priorities.
You choose not to support emacs-style tabbing because "the role- model for behavior when it comes to TextMate is NSTextView and OS X, that should go without saying!"
That was not the argument against emacs-style tabbing, it was the response to why I “made it so hard for Emacs users to embrace TextMate”.
[...] so I bought your product on good faith that you would address the issue
It is on the list of stuff to fix before 1.1 final -- but if you read this list and my change log, you're not the only person who've had to wait several months for something to be fixed/improved/implemented.
And if you feel deceived or have regret your purchase, let me know, and I'll give you a refund!
Not to have a flame war, but do you not choose your priorities? Regardless, I again request that you prioritize these mousing fixes.
If you'd like get more things checked off your list faster, I'm sure you would find a number of talented Cocoa developers among your user base who would be happy to contribute. Just ask them.
Shawn
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 01:19:58 +0100, Allan Odgaard wrote:
I think you mixup choices and priorities.
Hey Shawn. We all heard your requests. There is no need to repeat them. Furthermore, it is just rude to publically suggest to Allan better ways to develop his product. If you haven't noticed, he does it for fun, and he does it in his own way. If you don't like it, you can always grab that refund.
On 11/1/05 7:32 PM, "Shawn Van Ittersum" shawn@vantech.com wrote:
Not to have a flame war, but do you not choose your priorities? Regardless, I again request that you prioritize these mousing fixes.
If you'd like get more things checked off your list faster, I'm sure you would find a number of talented Cocoa developers among your user base who would be happy to contribute. Just ask them.
Shawn
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 01:19:58 +0100, Allan Odgaard wrote:
I think you mixup choices and priorities.
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On Nov 1, 2005, at 7:43 PM, Moshe Weitzman wrote:
Hey Shawn. We all heard your requests. There is no need to repeat them. Furthermore, it is just rude to publically suggest to Allan better ways to develop his product. If you haven't noticed, he does it for fun, and he does it in his own way. If you don't like it, you can always grab that refund.
Although I agree with you for the most part, the fact that we have paid a fair amount for this product does mean that we can publicly make suggestions. In fact, that's one of the reasons I actually paid for TextMate. I knew that although Allan didn't make the source available, he made himself available and actively participated in the mailing lists, and thus I could complain if something was broken. I thought of the license not as a license to use the software, since I could probably find a way to use it unlicensed, but as a license to complain about it. 3 If this were free software, then yes, complaining would be out of place. But it's not, and although Shawn's tone does come across as pretty abrasive, he still has every right to complain. Assuming, of course, that he's paid his complaint tax.
That being said, I haven't felt the need to complain about anything.
-dudley
Allan is one person. He is working productively on the program. He has opened up interfaces to the program to allow a lot of other people to work on it. He has dozens of people requesting features that they all think is more important than everyone else's request. It doesn't help Allan get through the list by being rude.
Here is one of my favorite blog entries, posted by Dave Hyatt of Safari. I've seen all the listed phrases on the list (replace EOMB with Every Other Modern Editor). I have probably used one or two in my younger days. -- Bug Guilt Trips (from http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2003_11.html#004361)
I love the tactics some people use when filing bugs. In particular the tactic of saying something inflammatory in order to goad the receiver of the bug into fixing it. You see this a lot in Bugzilla, and also in reported Safari bugs.
Here are some of my favorite phrases (for your enjoyment). Let X = the browser of your choice. Let Y = any other browser.
(1) The Promise - "The lack of this feature is the one thing that keeps me from switching to X." (2) "I can't work under these conditions. I'll be in my trailer." - "I can't believe you broke this! That's it! I'm going back to Y!" (3) Playing the EOMB Card - "How can this be broken? Every other modern browser gets this right." (4) Impatience - "Months have passed, and this bug still hasn't been fixed! What's the holdup?" (5) Overeagerness - "Still broken." (2 days later.) "Still broken." (2 days later.) "Feature still doesn't work. (2 days later.) "Broken in build from mm/dd/yy."
The Safari team has actually started using the term EOMB as a way of referring to all other modern browsers. ;)
i don't think that 39 bugs will allow you to be that rude!
it's already the greatest thing that could happen to you, that allan is available nearly all the time, but what you do with it, is abusing that opportunity to complain about the product.
as eric already said, he's one man, his software doesn't cost much and it's the best editor i've seen for os x by now.
if you have problems with a bigger product you paid 300 bugs or more for, would you write that company and complain as much as you do here?, would you tell them how they should program there software?
i don't reall think so.
and even after allan offered you a refund you still don't stop this. i, myself, consider this pretty ridiculous.
regards
lukas
Am 02.11.2005 um 14:54 schrieb Dudley Flanders:
On Nov 1, 2005, at 7:43 PM, Moshe Weitzman wrote:
Hey Shawn. We all heard your requests. There is no need to repeat them. Furthermore, it is just rude to publically suggest to Allan better ways to develop his product. If you haven't noticed, he does it for fun, and he does it in his own way. If you don't like it, you can always grab that refund.
Although I agree with you for the most part, the fact that we have paid a fair amount for this product does mean that we can publicly make suggestions. In fact, that's one of the reasons I actually paid for TextMate. I knew that although Allan didn't make the source available, he made himself available and actively participated in the mailing lists, and thus I could complain if something was broken. I thought of the license not as a license to use the software, since I could probably find a way to use it unlicensed, but as a license to complain about it. 3 If this were free software, then yes, complaining would be out of place. But it's not, and although Shawn's tone does come across as pretty abrasive, he still has every right to complain. Assuming, of course, that he's paid his complaint tax.
That being said, I haven't felt the need to complain about anything.
-dudley
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
sorry for the typo, it's "bucks" instead of "bugs" Am 05.11.2005 um 02:07 schrieb Lukas Pitschl:
i don't think that 39 bugs will allow you to be that rude!
it's already the greatest thing that could happen to you, that allan is available nearly all the time, but what you do with it, is abusing that opportunity to complain about the product.
as eric already said, he's one man, his software doesn't cost much and it's the best editor i've seen for os x by now.
if you have problems with a bigger product you paid 300 bugs or more for, would you write that company and complain as much as you do here?, would you tell them how they should program there software?
i don't reall think so.
and even after allan offered you a refund you still don't stop this. i, myself, consider this pretty ridiculous.
regards
lukas
Am 02.11.2005 um 14:54 schrieb Dudley Flanders:
On Nov 1, 2005, at 7:43 PM, Moshe Weitzman wrote:
Hey Shawn. We all heard your requests. There is no need to repeat them. Furthermore, it is just rude to publically suggest to Allan better ways to develop his product. If you haven't noticed, he does it for fun, and he does it in his own way. If you don't like it, you can always grab that refund.
Although I agree with you for the most part, the fact that we have paid a fair amount for this product does mean that we can publicly make suggestions. In fact, that's one of the reasons I actually paid for TextMate. I knew that although Allan didn't make the source available, he made himself available and actively participated in the mailing lists, and thus I could complain if something was broken. I thought of the license not as a license to use the software, since I could probably find a way to use it unlicensed, but as a license to complain about it. 3 If this were free software, then yes, complaining would be out of place. But it's not, and although Shawn's tone does come across as pretty abrasive, he still has every right to complain. Assuming, of course, that he's paid his complaint tax.
That being said, I haven't felt the need to complain about anything.
-dudley
_ For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
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Allan Odgaard -
Andreas Wahlin -
Dudley Flanders -
Eric Hsu -
Lukas Pitschl -
Moshe Weitzman -
Shawn Van Ittersum