I agree with Jack. Also, I've been using the latest betas of skEdit as well, and they ditched the drawer and it just works so much better. Perhaps this could be a preference? Although I doubt this is a simple thing to accomplish.

On Nov 23, 2005, at 7:11 AM, Jack Baty wrote:

On 11/23/05, Kevin Ballard kevin@sb.org wrote:

...

I'm not sure how ditching the drawer would give you more space, which is what you seem to be indicating you need.

I think it depends on how one relates a window to a workspace. I tend to think of each window as my entire workspace. When I need to see the project tree, I'd prefer that it was displayed "inside" the current window. Also, on a smaller monitor, the document window can easily fill the entire screen. In this case, when the drawer is opened, the document window size is reduced to make room. Then, when closing the drawer, it stays the reduced size, requiring a manual resize. Other than that, for me, (on a 20" iMac) it's simply a "feel" thing.

-- Jack Baty Fusionary Media - http://www.fusionary.com

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CMD+T for me brings up the "go to file menu" which is practically useless when it loads in thousands of files in alphabetical order. Not that it couldn't be used, but finding a file in a hierarchy is much faster, for me, to the way I think.

When looking to open a file, I typically think of where it is in the hierarchy rather than just the name. Perhaps I simply need to adjust the way I think, and do things, to make TextMate work for me better in this particular regard.

On Nov 23, 2005, at 9:04 AM, Allan Odgaard wrote:

On 23/11/2005, at 14:52, Colin D. Devroe wrote:

...

[...] Perhaps this could be a preference?

You can always edit the nib, but having it in the window does IMHO require different icons (i.e. some bar below the list a la Mail).

I'm changing things slightly for 1.2, so I'm not adding any visual preferences before the stuff is set in stone -- also, in 1.2 I plan to let the difference between projects and single file only be the presence of the (to be more like a file-system browser) drawer. The drawer works much better for “toggling” such things.

And with cmd-T, tabs, and possibly some enhancements wrt both of these, the drawer should very rarely be required to be called upon -- the thing Jack mentioned about having to resize the window after sliding away the drawer, that's something which could just be improved.

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On Wed, Nov 23, at 8:12 AM, Colin D. Devroe wrote:

CMD+T for me brings up the "go to file menu" which is practically useless when it loads in thousands of files in alphabetical order. Not that it couldn't be used, but finding a file in a hierarchy is much faster, for me, to the way I think.

Be sure you understand how the "go to file menu" works. Typing a few letters of a file name (and those letters do not have to be consecutive) will get you to your file. Say you have 'MyImportantFile.txt" somewhere deep in your project. Cmd-T, MIF, Enter and you got the file!

When I know the name of a file, the "go to file menu" due to it's smart find feature is a lot faster than navigating through the drawer. But sometimes I don't remember the name of a file, but know it's location. In that case the drawer is the way to go.

So there definitely is an argument for both.

Gerd

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 21:44:06 +1100, Christiaan Knol wrote:

Not sure how many web developers are here, but I've never been able to grasp the Cmd-T feature, as most of my files are actually called index.php with the actual preceding directory dictating the location. ie. /service/index.php /service/contact/index.php which both translate simply in a site to /service/ and /service/contact/ for simplicity.

I'm not sure how long this has been the case (having only recently drunk the Cmd-T koolaid myself), but the menu does seem to disambiguate identically-named files quite well now, using a long hyphen and just enough of the path to be useful, just like the Open Recent menu item.

Gosh that was a long sentence. See the following URL for a pathological example:

http://guineapig.article7.co.uk/tmp/textmate-cmd-t.jpg

Cheers, Andrew.

On 24/11/2005, at 15:38, Dev Purkayastha wrote:

I suppose another way of locating files might be the kind of "smart find" you find in Quicksilver [...] This might be a good plugin idea, perhaps?

This is exactly what cmd-T does (Navigation -> Go to File…) except it doesn't use the directory part in the ranking. I may experiment with that in the future.

On Wed, Nov 23, at 6:11 AM, Jack Baty wrote:

On 11/23/05, Kevin Ballard kevin@sb.org wrote:

...

I'm not sure how ditching the drawer would give you more space, which is what you seem to be indicating you need.

I think it depends on how one relates a window to a workspace. I tend to think of each window as my entire workspace. When I need to see the project tree, I'd prefer that it was displayed "inside" the current window. Also, on a smaller monitor, the document window can easily fill the entire screen. In this case, when the drawer is opened, the document window size is reduced to make room. Then, when closing the drawer, it stays the reduced size, requiring a manual resize. Other than that, for me, (on a 20" iMac) it's simply a "feel" thing.

The way I see it a window should maximize the information visible while at the same time use as little space as possible. For a programmers editor that usually means I want my windows about 80 + a few columns wide, and fairly tall to see as many lines of code as possible. (Side note: this is why the Tabs actually bug me, they use up valuable vertical space but with more than a few files open become pretty useless). A window size like that allows me to see most of a second window containing some reference info (depending on screen size obviously).

We need to distinguish between 2 basic usage patterns:

1) I do NOT need the projects file browser most of the time, (eg I use the "go to File.." dialog most of the time).

Here the drawer is a good idea. Would the tree be in the window, I would have to resize the window to see the browser and my 80 columns of code. And when I hide the browser, I would have to resize the window again.

The concept of the drawer fits this usage pattern well: Information that is only needed part of the time, but still relates to that window only, is contained in 'appendages' to the window (versus 'Inspector panels' of yesteryear that do not relate to the window as well).

One of the problems with drawers is that Apple did not think this all the way through. Let me give an example:

- I am on my iBook with it's small screen. - Temporarily I need to see 'more', so I maximize the window. - I need to see the drawer and bring it up. The window resizes to make room for the drawer, great.

But now it goes wrong:

- Hiding the drawer does not resize the window back to it's previous (full screen) size. - The 'original' dimensions of the window are lost, and replaced with the 'maximized minus drawer size' dimensions, so clicking the maximize button now toggles between that size and the full size.

I think if bringing up the drawer automatically resizes the window, closing the drawer should restore the previous window size. The 'manually resized' dimensions should almos never be overwritten by something the system does.

2) The project or the way I prefer to work makes it more convenient to see the file browser all of the time.

For this usage pattern the browser being integral part of the window makes more sense. It is information always required, so it should be part of the window rather than some appendage.

Clearly the problem here is that the requirements of these 2 usage patterns somewhat oppose each other. And which to pick depends on both project type and personal preference. I could even see myself using both types simultaneous, depending on project type.

So ideally TextMate would offer both, an it should be rather a project setting than a global preference. I think only that would appease all users. And there is sort of a preference with Xcode Layout preference (none of which I think are really useable though).

BTW there is a third usage pattern, and that is folks that want their applications to use up the entire screen. Kind of defeats the windowing system altogether though, and requires things like split views etc. However it is a more structured setup and avoids the chaos of multiple overlapping windows, which are very distracting for some users. Applications with a fairly narrow goal, like Mail and iPhoto, are suited for such an approach. An al-encompassing IDE might be as well. However a Text Editor like TextMate that leverages the power of other applications and may require various different views simultaneous (eg editor window, build window, preview, documentation, reference material) is in my opinion NOT suited for that.

Gerd

On 11/23/05, Indranil Dasgupta indranil@troidus.com wrote:

I love the drawer. It makes my life a lot easier. I can easily check out names and such things through it. And, if it was integrated, like iTunes or Mail, wouldn't it again eat up space. I think it's more of a personal preference.

One more thing about drawers in general is that I tend to click on open drawers accidentally, mistaking them for another window I'm trying to bring forward. The drop shadows and different (vertical) sizes of drawers create yet another visual layer; adding to the general "clutter" of my desktop.

That said, I'm trying to get the hang of using cmd-t more frequently, which would reduce my reliance upon the drawer. I freakin' love TextMate.

-- Jack Baty Fusionary Media - http://www.fusionary.com

Perhaps you read some of the messages wrong. We don't want to ditch the drawer and replace it with nothing. We want it replaced with something similar to how Mail, iTunes and iPhoto list hierarchies.

Nothing as "pretty", just arrows with the same file icons would suffice.

On Nov 23, 2005, at 11:47 AM, chris feldmann wrote:

I can't let this go by without a word of support for the drawer, which, similar to the case of the poster above, was one of the features that wowed me watching the rails video and sent me to Google to find out what that beautiful damn editor was. The ability to see, at a glance, a complex directory structure is to me a feature, and, even after a couple scant weeks, a nearly indispensable one. All the other features (deep programability and such) are just gravy, which is to say, a delightful, unexpected bonus. Finally I don't have to install quanta under fink, which never worked that well for me anyway.

Thanks, Colin D. Devroe

Personal: http://cdevroe.wordpress.com/ http://flickr.com/photos/cdevroe/

Work: http://9rules.com/ http://businesslogs.com/ http://chancecube.com/

Author: http://theubergeeks.net/

I don't see a big difference between the drawer and a pane, but here's a mockup:

http://www.ordinarykids.com/images/pane_mockup.png

I guess you could put a little open/close thing down at the bottom by the resize control.

Ed

On Nov 23, 2005, at 9:09 AM, Colin D. Devroe wrote:

Perhaps you read some of the messages wrong. We don't want to ditch the drawer and replace it with nothing. We want it replaced with something similar to how Mail, iTunes and iPhoto list hierarchies.

Nothing as "pretty", just arrows with the same file icons would suffice.

On Nov 23, 2005, at 11:47 AM, chris feldmann wrote:

...

I can't let this go by without a word of support for the drawer, which, similar to the case of the poster above, was one of the features that wowed me watching the rails video and sent me to Google to find out what that beautiful damn editor was. The ability to see, at a glance, a complex directory structure is to me a feature, and, even after a couple scant weeks, a nearly indispensable one. All the other features (deep programability and such) are just gravy, which is to say, a delightful, unexpected bonus. Finally I don't have to install quanta under fink, which never worked that well for me anyway.

Thanks, Colin D. Devroe

Personal: http://cdevroe.wordpress.com/ http://flickr.com/photos/cdevroe/

Work: http://9rules.com/ http://businesslogs.com/ http://chancecube.com/

Author: http://theubergeeks.net/

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On 23/11/2005, at 18:36, chris feldmann wrote:

[...] I guess I don't understand why anyone else does.

I feel the need to link to the classic: “Why should I care what color the bikeshed is?”: http://www.unixguide.net/freebsd/faq/16.19.shtml

And with that, I'd like to close this thread! :)

Okay, instead of endlessly arguing about - scratch that - "discussing" shed color, I'll just say that I believe that color (now a euphemism for "drawer") makes a significant cognitive difference regarding the entire shed.

Other than that, Allan prefers the drawer UI to a panel, and that's good enough for me.

On 11/23/05, Domenico Carbotta domenico.carbotta@fastwebnet.it wrote:

...

And with that, I'd like to close this thread! :)

I, for one, welcome our new bikeshed-building and thread-closing overlords :)

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