This hit the front page of reddit today, thought it would be good to let the list know about it. I found it to be a well written piece and keeps me happy moving forward.
http://blog.macromates.com/2009/working-on-it/
There are a good deal of comments on the blog as well as reddit about the no pay for version 2 issue. I am more or less in the camp of "charge for version 2", especially if the lack of a charge is in any way adding to a lack of motivation to get 2 out the door.
That being said, I do not believe it would be wise to go against a statement made in the past that version 2 would be a free upgrade. Remember, there is nothing stopping any of us from just buying version 2 outright when it comes out if that is the direction you want to go in.
This may skew stats a little on new users, versus upgrade users which could be undesirable. My suggestion, when this day comes, simply make version two require a checkout process, to get a new serial, and charge $0.00 to whatever you feel it is worth.
Personally, if version 2 solves a good deal of my needs that are lacking in version 1, I will be donating one way or another, $100.00 for my copy. I pay my mortgage, dinners, clothes, and the rest of my life as a result of TextMate, $100.00 is a small price to pay for making it easier for me to make a living.
Thank you for coming forward with a new plan to keep users updated on the progress. It has been long overdue, though users are generally forgiving. I also feel, the most vocal, that make a lot of noise, are probably a very small percentage of the true count of the user base.
Yay for 2.0 news! Very nice to know at least one person is using 2.0 on a daily basis as well. Have a nice end of the weekend to you all.
I feel very much the same way, textmate was the very first software i bought when i first got my mac and it and this brilliant community has allowed me to keep my sanity while working on numerous projects. To be honest i cant really imagine a workflow today without textmate. So with that said, i personally have every intention of buying a new licences when textmate 2 comes, regardless of it being a free or paid upgrade. Lets call it evening the score for every game/app i pirated in my youth ,)
On 14 jun 2009, at 23.53, Scott Haneda wrote:
This hit the front page of reddit today, thought it would be good to let the list know about it. I found it to be a well written piece and keeps me happy moving forward.
http://blog.macromates.com/2009/working-on-it/
There are a good deal of comments on the blog as well as reddit about the no pay for version 2 issue. I am more or less in the camp of "charge for version 2", especially if the lack of a charge is in any way adding to a lack of motivation to get 2 out the door.
That being said, I do not believe it would be wise to go against a statement made in the past that version 2 would be a free upgrade. Remember, there is nothing stopping any of us from just buying version 2 outright when it comes out if that is the direction you want to go in.
This may skew stats a little on new users, versus upgrade users which could be undesirable. My suggestion, when this day comes, simply make version two require a checkout process, to get a new serial, and charge $0.00 to whatever you feel it is worth.
Personally, if version 2 solves a good deal of my needs that are lacking in version 1, I will be donating one way or another, $100.00 for my copy. I pay my mortgage, dinners, clothes, and the rest of my life as a result of TextMate, $100.00 is a small price to pay for making it easier for me to make a living.
Thank you for coming forward with a new plan to keep users updated on the progress. It has been long overdue, though users are generally forgiving. I also feel, the most vocal, that make a lot of noise, are probably a very small percentage of the true count of the user base.
Yay for 2.0 news! Very nice to know at least one person is using 2.0 on a daily basis as well. Have a nice end of the weekend to you all. -- Scott * If you contact me off list replace talklists@ with scott@ *
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
I too want some way to donate, or a choose your own price for TextMate 2 upgrade. TextMate is the OS X of editors.
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Mikael Hultgrenblomma@gmail.com wrote:
I feel very much the same way, textmate was the very first software i bought when i first got my mac and it and this brilliant community has allowed me to keep my sanity while working on numerous projects. To be honest i cant really imagine a workflow today without textmate. So with that said, i personally have every intention of buying a new licences when textmate 2 comes, regardless of it being a free or paid upgrade. Lets call it evening the score for every game/app i pirated in my youth ,)
On 14 jun 2009, at 23.53, Scott Haneda wrote:
This hit the front page of reddit today, thought it would be good to let the list know about it. I found it to be a well written piece and keeps me happy moving forward.
http://blog.macromates.com/2009/working-on-it/
There are a good deal of comments on the blog as well as reddit about the no pay for version 2 issue. I am more or less in the camp of "charge for version 2", especially if the lack of a charge is in any way adding to a lack of motivation to get 2 out the door.
That being said, I do not believe it would be wise to go against a statement made in the past that version 2 would be a free upgrade. Remember, there is nothing stopping any of us from just buying version 2 outright when it comes out if that is the direction you want to go in.
This may skew stats a little on new users, versus upgrade users which could be undesirable. My suggestion, when this day comes, simply make version two require a checkout process, to get a new serial, and charge $0.00 to whatever you feel it is worth.
Personally, if version 2 solves a good deal of my needs that are lacking in version 1, I will be donating one way or another, $100.00 for my copy. I pay my mortgage, dinners, clothes, and the rest of my life as a result of TextMate, $100.00 is a small price to pay for making it easier for me to make a living.
Thank you for coming forward with a new plan to keep users updated on the progress. It has been long overdue, though users are generally forgiving. I also feel, the most vocal, that make a lot of noise, are probably a very small percentage of the true count of the user base.
Yay for 2.0 news! Very nice to know at least one person is using 2.0 on a daily basis as well. Have a nice end of the weekend to you all. -- Scott * If you contact me off list replace talklists@ with scott@ *
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
On 2009-June-14 , at 17:53 , Scott Haneda wrote:
There are a good deal of comments on the blog as well as reddit about the no pay for version 2 issue. I am more or less in the camp of "charge for version 2", especially if the lack of a charge is in any way adding to a lack of motivation to get 2 out the door.
I also think hard work should be rewarded and TM 2.0 seems to have been hard in the making. Yet, if I recall correctly, Allan said that he did not feel like charging for TM 2 because, in his mind, TM 2 will be what TM 1 really should have been (it was in a Q&A after a talk at C4). So, in a way, all of us who paid for a finished product, "already paid" for TM 2. This is very noble of him and quite humbling when you see how good TM 1 already is, despite the rough edges.
Of course Allan's financial situation might have changed (2 years is a long time) but if he still feels like he can live out of the new purchases, I think there is another hard work that's essential and could be rewarded with the money everyone seems ready to spend. TM is great because of its bundles and there's been a healthy, hard-working and productive open-source community built around those. I think bundle developers typically did not expect money in return for their work. But TM is not free software and since there is money involved, it would seem fair that those deserving people get their share too. I don't know which form that could take. It could be a donation page where every one chooses which bundles (s)he wants to give money to, or Alllan picking the bundles he sees as most active and most used. It would be even nicer if it could bring some value back to TextMate, like, for example, employing Michael Sheets part or full time to manage the bundles (if that is not already the case). Or paying some bounties for the development of specific features in bundles, the polishing of what potentially unexperienced bundles developers produced, the unification of some behaviors across bundles etc.
Anyway, that's just an idea and Allan has probably thought about that before. I just wanted to take this opportunity to acknowledge the work of all those people working around but outside of TextMate and maybe get the ball rolling in their direction.
PS: for full disclosure, I am subscribed to TextMate dev, committed a few things here and there, and improved the Fortran bundle. But I don't consider myself a bundle developer at all. There are plenty of other people that devoted much more of their time to make some great bundles.
JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/
I also think hard work should be rewarded (...)
+1 for paid upgrade of TM2.
I remember this kind of discussion was already there 3 months ago or so. But it's cool to so many of TM users that want to pay for something that's declared to be free. And I agree with JiHo that probably this would/could result with sooner and more stable release of TM2 and more development possibilities + some full-time side developers.
I would appreciate also some screenshots of dev version + some ideas behind written down, rather sort of explanation (we already know) that we found on TM blog. Indeed some short blog entries with some screen snapshots and dev notes would make it easier to wait for TM2 release, that's such a Holy Grail for us all now :)
Cheers,
I think people are guessing that the free upgrade is the source of the long wait for 2.0. But after reading Alan's post I can't agree with people that he isn't motivated to get it done. It seems to me that he is seeking a kind of perfection in realizing his vision -- a vision he hasn't really shared with us so we have no ability to judge it.
However, I think there is away for Alan to keep his free upgrade promise and still make some upgrade revenue. It would be very reasonable to make 2.0 a paid upgrade for some period of time, and then free afterwards. Maybe 6-12 months might be reasonable. Those of us with the ability and inclination to get 2.0 right away will gladly pay to get 2.0 early. The rest will still get their free upgrade, but they will have to wait a bit.
On Jun 15, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Adam Strzelecki wrote:
I also think hard work should be rewarded (...)
+1 for paid upgrade of TM2.
I remember this kind of discussion was already there 3 months ago or so. But it's cool to so many of TM users that want to pay for something that's declared to be free. And I agree with JiHo that probably this would/could result with sooner and more stable release of TM2 and more development possibilities + some full-time side developers.
I would appreciate also some screenshots of dev version + some ideas behind written down, rather sort of explanation (we already know) that we found on TM blog. Indeed some short blog entries with some screen snapshots and dev notes would make it easier to wait for TM2 release, that's such a Holy Grail for us all now :)
Cheers,
Adam
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
Dear all,
About free or paid upgrade: people should be able to download it for free (as promised), BUT with a possibility to donate money. Everybody should be happy with that.
Best, S.
Le 15 juin 09 à 18:34, Martin Hess a écrit :
I think people are guessing that the free upgrade is the source of the long wait for 2.0. But after reading Alan's post I can't agree with people that he isn't motivated to get it done. It seems to me that he is seeking a kind of perfection in realizing his vision -- a vision he hasn't really shared with us so we have no ability to judge it.
However, I think there is away for Alan to keep his free upgrade promise and still make some upgrade revenue. It would be very reasonable to make 2.0 a paid upgrade for some period of time, and then free afterwards. Maybe 6-12 months might be reasonable. Those of us with the ability and inclination to get 2.0 right away will gladly pay to get 2.0 early. The rest will still get their free upgrade, but they will have to wait a bit.
On Jun 15, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Adam Strzelecki wrote:
I also think hard work should be rewarded (...)
+1 for paid upgrade of TM2.
I remember this kind of discussion was already there 3 months ago or so. But it's cool to so many of TM users that want to pay for something that's declared to be free. And I agree with JiHo that probably this would/could result with sooner and more stable release of TM2 and more development possibilities + some full-time side developers.
I would appreciate also some screenshots of dev version + some ideas behind written down, rather sort of explanation (we already know) that we found on TM blog. Indeed some short blog entries with some screen snapshots and dev notes would make it easier to wait for TM2 release, that's such a Holy Grail for us all now :)
Cheers,
Adam
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
-- Ce message a été vérifié par MailScanner pour des virus ou des polluriels et rien de suspect n'a été trouvé. CRI UPVD http://www.univ-perp.fr
Dear all,
Just to add my grain de sel, I would no be offended if TM2 is not free. This promise has been done a very long time ago. Why would a developer have to give a two year development work for free? The method proposed by Martin Hess is very interesting.
Anyway, it's good to hear that TM2 is getting closer... and to hear anything at all, by the way. ;-p
Best regards, Mathieu
___________________________________________
Mathieu Godart
Skype: mathieu_godart MSN: mathieu_godart@hotmail.com
ASIC Integration Manager Coolsand Technologies ___________________________________________
I suspect it has a lot to do with 1.x was intended as a near "proof of concept" for lack of a more accurate way to describe the developers intentions.
A developers word to his users, in my opinion is more important than the software itself. Second is support. Third is the software.
I use some less than ideal software because support and honesty are top notch. I am about to abandon some excellent software because support is poor.
The second a developer does not keep their word, they become unapproachable. They become no different than Apple, Adobe, and the rest of the big guns who we must resort to mass group petitions to get a PR based appology.
By Allan keeping his word, he maintains something few ever pull off, which is being with us, not against us.
As I have mentioned, there will be nothing preventing any if us from ignoring the free upgrade option and just buying version 2 outright. No donation button needed.
If you really want to make it known to Allan you have chosen this method, we should simply come up with a plan to enter in "donation" as our middle name when ordering, or maybe as a comment if there is such a field.
I personally don't care to make it know. Allan will know when he checks his bank account :)
The other option is to buy a copy for someone you know - increase the size of community.
As for me, well I was part of the original Macheist bundle. So the upgrade will not be free for me - which I'm glad about.
MP
On 18/06/2009, at 3:34 AM, Scott Haneda wrote:
I suspect it has a lot to do with 1.x was intended as a near "proof of concept" for lack of a more accurate way to describe the developers intentions.
A developers word to his users, in my opinion is more important than the software itself. Second is support. Third is the software.
I use some less than ideal software because support and honesty are top notch. I am about to abandon some excellent software because support is poor.
The second a developer does not keep their word, they become unapproachable. They become no different than Apple, Adobe, and the rest of the big guns who we must resort to mass group petitions to get a PR based appology.
By Allan keeping his word, he maintains something few ever pull off, which is being with us, not against us.
As I have mentioned, there will be nothing preventing any if us from ignoring the free upgrade option and just buying version 2 outright. No donation button needed.
If you really want to make it known to Allan you have chosen this method, we should simply come up with a plan to enter in "donation" as our middle name when ordering, or maybe as a comment if there is such a field.
I personally don't care to make it know. Allan will know when he checks his bank account :) -- Scott Iphone says hello.
On Jun 17, 2009, at 2:49 AM, Mathieu Godart mathieu@coolsand-tech.fr wrote:
Dear all,
Just to add my grain de sel, I would no be offended if TM2 is not free. This promise has been done a very long time ago. Why would a developer have to give a two year development work for free? The method proposed by Martin Hess is very interesting.
Anyway, it's good to hear that TM2 is getting closer... and to hear anything at all, by the way. ;-p
Best regards, Mathieu
Mathieu Godart
Skype: mathieu_godart MSN: mathieu_godart@hotmail.com
ASIC Integration Manager Coolsand Technologies ___________________________________________
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
I want to chime in and say I would definitely pay for the upgrade too.
One thought I had that would work for both side of the pay/free issue is to have both options available, but have a few weeks delay between the release of the paid upgrade and the free one. Those that want the new version could pay to get it when it's ready while those who don't would have to wait a little longer. The 'get it now' incentive would surely spur a few people into action.
E.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Mark Perrinm.perrin@me.com wrote:
The other option is to buy a copy for someone you know - increase the size of community.
As for me, well I was part of the original Macheist bundle. So the upgrade will not be free for me - which I'm glad about.
MP
On 18/06/2009, at 3:34 AM, Scott Haneda wrote:
I suspect it has a lot to do with 1.x was intended as a near "proof of concept" for lack of a more accurate way to describe the developers intentions.
A developers word to his users, in my opinion is more important than the software itself. Second is support. Third is the software.
I use some less than ideal software because support and honesty are top notch. I am about to abandon some excellent software because support is poor.
The second a developer does not keep their word, they become unapproachable. They become no different than Apple, Adobe, and the rest of the big guns who we must resort to mass group petitions to get a PR based appology.
By Allan keeping his word, he maintains something few ever pull off, which is being with us, not against us.
As I have mentioned, there will be nothing preventing any if us from ignoring the free upgrade option and just buying version 2 outright. No donation button needed.
If you really want to make it known to Allan you have chosen this method, we should simply come up with a plan to enter in "donation" as our middle name when ordering, or maybe as a comment if there is such a field.
I personally don't care to make it know. Allan will know when he checks his bank account :) -- Scott Iphone says hello.
On Jun 17, 2009, at 2:49 AM, Mathieu Godart mathieu@coolsand-tech.fr wrote:
Dear all,
Just to add my grain de sel, I would no be offended if TM2 is not free. This promise has been done a very long time ago. Why would a developer have to give a two year development work for free? The method proposed by Martin Hess is very interesting.
Anyway, it's good to hear that TM2 is getting closer... and to hear anything at all, by the way. ;-p
Best regards, Mathieu
Mathieu Godart
Skype: mathieu_godart MSN: mathieu_godart@hotmail.com
ASIC Integration Manager Coolsand Technologies ___________________________________________
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
On 23 Jun 2009, at 05:35, Elliot Anderson wrote:
Those that want the new version could pay to get it when it's ready while those who don't would have to wait a little longer. The 'get it now' incentive would surely spur a few people into action.
E.
Definite vote against this from me.
I understand that TM has a loyal following who are keen to help out and repay Allan for his development work, but paying for your upgrade will (I would imagine) be the exception rather than the rule, and you shouldn't try and force people to do it if they don't want to. Remember that there are plenty of people who could put the cost of an upgrade to much better use in this economic climate, and they shouldn't be penalised for not wanting to pay for an upgrade they are entitled to for free.
I personally think that the free upgrade is one of the best selling points of TextMate 2 and Allan should be shouting it from the rooftops and making it as prominent as possible on the purchase page. If the free upgrade option was hidden (or worse, not available) when I went to upgrade, I most likely would not upgrade. I certainly won't pay for it if I know it should be free, and I would feel cheated if I could not easily access the free upgrade, for whatever reason.
Nigel
Me, I want to see it first.
See I feel abandoned. There are some features I consider rather basic and important (and I am not talking something more difficult like a split view) that are missing in TM1. And basically other than bug fixes TM1 has not seen any improvements in around 2 years. I love TM, but the lack of steady enhancements is really bugging me. I need to get my work done now. I don't care about some mysterious TM2 that may or may not show up at some point, and it may or may not be the solution to all or the beginning of all evil. Until it is there.
I remember back then we were lead to believe (or maybe I misunderstood) that TM2 will require Leopard. So I figured OK, I can live with this a few months until Leopard comes out with TM2 on it's heels. Well, that time came and went, and nothing happened (though we did read about multi-month vacations, good for him!).
So I am sitting here waiting for Allan to make it up to me with a kick- ass TM2 alpha release in the hopefully not to distant future, then we can talk.
Gerd
Wow.
Whenever I buy software, I buy it based on its merits at the time. If you buy based on features that are promised for the future, you'll likely end up burned (IMHO).
TextMate was worth everything I paid for it. I have gotten a lot of use out of it. I am trying to migrate to emacs, since there's not a TextMate for linux, but I keep coming back to TM for most of my editing.
I agree that if Allan promised TM 2 would be a free upgrade, that it should be out of fairness. I agree that anyone who feels strongly that TM is an amazing piece of software and wants to donate/repurchase/whatever should have an easy way to give him money. I also feel that if Allan wants to take a vacation, he should be able to without that being thrown back at him! I was pretty shocked when I read this email - enough to actually make me take the time to write back (I usually ignore stuff like this).
In any case, I wanted to add my voice to those who have expressed their support for the wonderful work Allan has done with TextMate, the bundles, the screencasts, etc. He was quick to help me when I needed help coding a bundle. I'm amazed at the number of apps that promote themselves as being like TextMate, or compatible with it, or whatever. Amazing work!
And Allan (if you're even reading this drivel), even if you never get around to releasing TM 2 - it doesn't take away from what you've accomplished. Though I'm admittedly curious about what you have planned!
Thanks again,
Fletcher Penney
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Gerd Knops gerti-textmate@bitart.com wrote:
Me, I want to see it first.
See I feel abandoned. There are some features I consider rather basic and important (and I am not talking something more difficult like a split view) that are missing in TM1. And basically other than bug fixes TM1 has not seen any improvements in around 2 years. I love TM, but the lack of steady enhancements is really bugging me. I need to get my work done now. I don't care about some mysterious TM2 that may or may not show up at some point, and it may or may not be the solution to all or the beginning of all evil. Until it is there.
I remember back then we were lead to believe (or maybe I misunderstood) that TM2 will require Leopard. So I figured OK, I can live with this a few months until Leopard comes out with TM2 on it's heels. Well, that time came and went, and nothing happened (though we did read about multi-month vacations, good for him!).
So I am sitting here waiting for Allan to make it up to me with a kick- ass TM2 alpha release in the hopefully not to distant future, then we can talk.
Gerd
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
-- Fletcher T. Penney fletcher@fletcherpenney.net
The real answer: Don't talk about future versions, ever.
Lesson learned.
I'd happily pay for TM2
On Jun 23, 2009, at 8:52 AM, Fletcher T. Penney wrote:
Wow.
Whenever I buy software, I buy it based on its merits at the time. If you buy based on features that are promised for the future, you'll likely end up burned (IMHO).
TextMate was worth everything I paid for it. I have gotten a lot of use out of it. I am trying to migrate to emacs, since there's not a TextMate for linux, but I keep coming back to TM for most of my editing.
I agree that if Allan promised TM 2 would be a free upgrade, that it should be out of fairness. I agree that anyone who feels strongly that TM is an amazing piece of software and wants to donate/repurchase/whatever should have an easy way to give him money. I also feel that if Allan wants to take a vacation, he should be able to without that being thrown back at him! I was pretty shocked when I read this email - enough to actually make me take the time to write back (I usually ignore stuff like this).
In any case, I wanted to add my voice to those who have expressed their support for the wonderful work Allan has done with TextMate, the bundles, the screencasts, etc. He was quick to help me when I needed help coding a bundle. I'm amazed at the number of apps that promote themselves as being like TextMate, or compatible with it, or whatever. Amazing work!
And Allan (if you're even reading this drivel), even if you never get around to releasing TM 2 - it doesn't take away from what you've accomplished. Though I'm admittedly curious about what you have planned!
Thanks again,
Fletcher Penney
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Gerd Knops <gerti-textmate@bitart.com
wrote:
Me, I want to see it first.
See I feel abandoned. There are some features I consider rather basic and important (and I am not talking something more difficult like a split view) that are missing in TM1. And basically other than bug fixes TM1 has not seen any improvements in around 2 years. I love TM, but the lack of steady enhancements is really bugging me. I need to get my work done now. I don't care about some mysterious TM2 that may or may not show up at some point, and it may or may not be the solution to all or the beginning of all evil. Until it is there.
I remember back then we were lead to believe (or maybe I misunderstood) that TM2 will require Leopard. So I figured OK, I can live with this a few months until Leopard comes out with TM2 on it's heels. Well, that time came and went, and nothing happened (though we did read about multi-month vacations, good for him!).
So I am sitting here waiting for Allan to make it up to me with a kick- ass TM2 alpha release in the hopefully not to distant future, then we can talk.
Gerd
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
-- Fletcher T. Penney fletcher@fletcherpenney.net
textmate mailing list textmate@lists.macromates.com http://lists.macromates.com/listinfo/textmate
Agreed. We do not want this checkout process to look like Real Player. I again go back to no change in policy.
If you want to pay, do so, buy a second license. If not, download the free version upgrade.
If you don't like that, paypal a donation to his email address, if that does not work, send him an check, if that does not work, stuff a IOU for your first unborn in the mail. ;)
-
Adam Strzelecki -
Elliot Anderson -
Fletcher T. Penney -
Gerd Knops -
JiHO -
Mark Perrin -
Martin Hess -
Mathieu Godart -
Mikael Hultgren -
Nick -
Nigel Green -
Scott Haneda -
Steven W Riggins -
THIL Stéphane