On 04/10/2005, at 19.41, Neil Lee wrote:

Really? That makes absolutely no sense - what's the connection between new documents and projects?

The connection is that a “template” can create multiple files (e.g. source + header for C) so there needs to be a project to “receive” the files. But it's something I'll “fix” in 1.2. Which will be a major overhaul on the way projects and single documents work.

I'm trying really hard to integrate Textmate into my workflow, but there so little that's documented I'm starting to wonder if I can afford the time required to figure it out.

Yes, TextMate needs a lot of documentation work, but if you select Help -> Templates the first line says:

Templates are used when creating new files (currently only from a project window).

So maybe this wasn't the best example to “complain” about the state of the documentation :)

Oh, one other thing that would be really useful is the ability to search Bundles for a specific item. By quick key would be awesome, though I know that might be tricky - for example, I hit shift+control +command+h and I get the code for an XHTML 1.0 strict document, but I can't figure out which snippet is actually inserting this code.

And just to be clear, please don't take my griping as all negativity - I really like a lot of what I see in Textmate (especially the very cool tag insertion feature) - it's just that there's so much that's new it's hard to know where to start, or where to look to figure out how to accomplish things.

Neil

Note to general reader. This is not intended to put down any other application, system, developer or whatever. So *please* don't read that into it. ;-)

Neil, I'm concerned that you are on the verge of making a big mistake, something that you will 'curse' yourself for one day, so hence this reply.

Yes,... -- to use and understand all the powerful features of TextMate requires a bit of a learning effort.

-- sometimes the existing documentation and information might not be perfect.

-- sometimes it can be hard when you're used to something else.

BUT... -- once you get it, once you understand TM, then you quickly begin to wonder how and WHY you were wasting your time with other editors, and you begin being far more productive than you ever were before.

-- where the documentation lacks, this ML or the #textmate IRC channel makes up for it. And please do not discount the fact that with Allan - the sole developer - you also have the best, most helpful, friendly and clued up app developer that I have met in my 15 + years working with computers.

-- everything that's radically new poses that same problem. It's sort of like comparing OS X with OS 9, or dare I say Windows. And surely you wouldn't want to remain on either of those now, when the 'rest of the world' is on OS X ? ;-)

Now, onto the abbreviated "How to get the best out of TextMate" guide.

1. When working with a project in BBEdit, you would use a Finder window as your project window, where you look for, find and open files in the project. In TM, that is possible through either... -- the Project Drawer. A part from a few issues that will be addressed in 1.2, this beats working with the Finder hands down. -- or Cmd+T which brings up a tiny search window that's smarter than you might think looking at it. (requires a Project to work though)

2. When working with web development (like both of us do), you have a choice between working with the various bundles. Any flaws or failings in this area are mainly due to yours truly and others, and not really Allan or TM, and exists due to limitations in time and energy among us users/bundle developers.

Although imperfect at the moment, doing web development is a much nicer experience in TM, where you have features like this:

-- TM has a far more advanced syntax highlighting system, and it's scope system can enable you to highlight specific embedded languages / tags / functions in almost any way you wish if you so choose. The PHP syntax embedded in (X)HTML is one good example of this, although the visual display of this may be dependent upon the "Theme" you have enabled. (Pastels on Dark is my theme)

-- TM's scope system in combination with it's Commands, Snippets and Macros enables you to make your own time-saving shortcuts, such as automatically converting & into & inside HTML text, or the PHP completion system - [ www.imediatec.co.uk/tm/phpcc/ ], or so many other things. In other words, TM won't let you down, but your knowledge and/or imagination can/will.

3. When you are looking for a feature in TM, that you use in BBEdit, there are three places to look. -- Automation -> Run Command -> TextMate -> Show Keyboard Shortcuts -- Automation menu in general -- the general menu bar

IF you can't find it in either, ask on the ML/IRC or sit down and think about IF it's really needed in the first place. If it was it would probably have been replicated by now. Why that order ? Well, because Allan, wisely so, has chosen not to hard code features, but rather make it easy for us to add or change new/existing features to our own liking and/or needs.

4. "Think Different". BBEdit made you work in a certain way, TM will change much of that. Not for the worse, but for the better, so be prepared to let go of your old style, workflow, methods etc, and embrace the new. You are not alone in finding it hard to begin with in the first few days, but there are plenty of examples of users being converted very quickly. I am one of them :)

Finally, a related/un-related point. IF you're not already using RubyOnRails to do your web development stuff, then start using it now. I wasted a year of not wanting to change my workflow, learn something new, etc etc, and now I'm cursing myself to sleep every night ;-) To wet your toes, try out Locomotive [ http:// locomotive.sourceforge.net/ ], the single installer app for Rails development and the tutorials on [ www.rubyonrails.com ].

Have fun !

On 4 Oct 2005, at 16:59, Neil Lee wrote:

I'm sorry if this is a totally obvious question, but I'm trying out Textmate after years of using BBEdit and I'm a bit lost.

On 4 Oct 2005, at 18:41, Neil Lee wrote:

I'm trying really hard to integrate Textmate into my workflow, but there so little that's documented I'm starting to wonder if I can afford the time required to figure it out. It's really too bad - it's pretty obvious how powerful bundles and TM's integration with command line scripting is - but for me time is, unfortunately, money.

On 4 Oct 2005, at 19:03, Neil Lee wrote:

Le 05-10-04 à 13:53, Allan Odgaard a écrit :

...

Yes, TextMate needs a lot of documentation work, but if you select Help -> Templates the first line says: Templates are used when creating new files (currently only from a project window).

I saw that, but I didn't believe it. :) I just assumed that was a weird oversight that had been fixed but not updated in the help files. I'm not a hardcore programmer, so I would have never assumed that a file template would actually create multiple files - I'm mostly doing web development.

I guess it's back to BBEdit for now, but I'll keep an eye on how TM develops. I already paid the registration fee to support development, after all!

On 4 Oct 2005, at 19:31, Neil Lee wrote:

And just to be clear, please don't take my griping as all negativity - I really like a lot of what I see in Textmate (especially the very cool tag insertion feature) - it's just that there's so much that's new it's hard to know where to start, or where to look to figure out how to accomplish things.

Kind regards,

Mats

---- "TextMate, coding with an incredible sense of joy and ease" - www.macromates.com -

Le 05-10-05 à 04:23, Mats Persson a écrit :

Neil, I'm concerned that you are on the verge of making a big mistake, something that you will 'curse' yourself for one day, so hence this reply.

Mats, I totally appreciate you taking the time to write that, and for the most part I agree. It's great to see that Textmate has a dedicated (rabid? heh) following.

This is my attitude about the whole thing: It's text.

I've been a web designer for 7 years, and have used many text editors, but at the end of if all, it's just text. Using BBEdit or any other editor instead of Textmate isn't going to make me "curse", or lament, or scream and throw hissy fits, as it all ends up being the same thing in the end. :)

For me, it's all about billable hours. I need to feed a family, pay down debt, save for a rainy day, etc., and every time I need to learn a new application (like a major Flash upgrade, etc.) I need to weigh the benefits vs. the amount of billable hours the learning will suck up.

Textmate looks great, but for me it's reminiscent of many open source projects: great application, incredible community, scattered and poorly written documentation. For lots and lots of people that's fine, but for me, I need something I can get in, rip apart quickly, and figure how to do what I need to do quickly.

I'm sure if I spent some time with Textmate I'd learn what I need to learn, but with deadlines and clients kicking me in the ass, I just can't afford the time. I only have so many hours in me that I can spend in front of the computer, after all.

So, yeah. I'll open Textmate and fiddle with it here and there, and I'll definitely start using it more often. But I know there are many others like me who just don't have the inclination to pick through some basic documentation,l a wiki, a IRC chat, a mailing list, and a web site to try and figure out how to get text into a document faster. I'd rather spend that time making money.

So, and I'll say it again, documentation! Give me a printable set of docs that I can take with me on the metro and I'm yours for life. The fact that I just spent the time writing this rambling reply hopefully shows that I'm hopeful for TM. :)

Neil P.S. I'm a designer: HTML, CSS, some server-side, etc. - not a full- fledged programmer. This hopefully explains why when I look at bundles it makes my eyes throb.