I just added myself to the list. My name is Andreas Wahlin, aged 25 from Sweden. I fancy myself as a "web developer" and know my way around JavaScript, DOM scripting and such things. I've really just began to discover the rich world of wed development and try to immerse myself in standards, AJAX and other buzzwords. I bought a Mac just a few months back, being totally fed up by windows and not managing to switch to (Suse) Linux. To be honest, I haven't really switched over to TextMate just yet, but something clicked with beta15 and I'll probably be doing the switch real soon, TextMate seems to be heading in the correct way so I really see it as a future investment!
Andreas
On 24 Jul 2005, at 09:26, Andreas Wahlin wrote:
I just added myself to the list. My name is Andreas Wahlin, aged 25 from Sweden.
Välkommen Andreas, My name is Mats, aged 21+ (stopped counting to prevent persistent depression ;-) ) and also a Swede :-),
I fancy myself as a "web developer" and know my way around JavaScript, DOM scripting and such things. I've really just began to discover the rich world of wed development and try to immerse myself in standards, AJAX and other buzzwords.
I saw your post on the TM blog, and really wanted to get in touch with you about it. Having worked with the XHTML/CSS/JS/PHP syntaxes over the past few months, I know where some of the weaknesses are and many of them have been noted for a long time, but it is always good to hear from someone new and fresh.
The problems we are having with the (X)HTML syntaxes are how to structure them up, avoiding repetitions, making them work with multiple other syntaxes (such as PHP, Ruby, etc). Many of the causes for these limitations have just been removed in 1.1b14+, and I am trying to rework the (X)HTML syntaxes to work better, including specific level highlighting like the <form> tags you mentioned.
Actually, if you look at the PHP syntax you will find that there are specific syntax groups for each of the various function groups, so that you could have MySQL specific functions in green, while the Array specific functions are Yellow if you would want that, and the ultimate aim of the (X)HTML syntaxes are something along those lines.
The problem with (X)HTML is that it's a beast in my mind, and kind of hard to grasp firmly at times. So if you can find the time and energy to help with that we all would be grateful.
Max Williams (max13) has been working on an improved CSS syntax, with fine grained scopes and easy completions, so we are trying to improve the "Web Dev" side of TM as best we can in the given time and circumstances.
I bought a Mac just a few months back, being totally fed up by windows and not managing to switch to (Suse) Linux. To be honest, I haven't really switched over to TextMate just yet, but something clicked with beta15 and I'll probably be doing the switch real soon, TextMate seems to be heading in the correct way so I really see it as a future investment!
Well welcome again. I'm sure you will find it better on this side once you get used to a few things that are different. If there is anything that is preventing you from using TM as your main app, I would love to know what that specifically is, and I'm sure Allan is interested too.
You can find me on the #textmate irc channel most of the time, so do drop by for a chat.
PS: Just for clarification I am just a happy TM user that is helping out with some of the WebDev syntaxes.
Kind regards,
Mats
---- "TextMate, coding with an incredible sense of joy and ease" - www.macromates.com -
Well welcome again. I'm sure you will find it better on this side once you get used to a few things that are different. If there is anything that is preventing you from using TM as your main app, I would love to know what that specifically is, and I'm sure Allan is interested too.
There really is just one reason; my windows don't remember their positions. I'm on the "spatial team", and I have no tabbs in any program, and after a few hours of work I have like 10+ finder windows open. I need a window in the same space I left it. BBedit provides this, TextMate does not. I usually never bother with project things and such (which probably proves that I either work inefective or that I never worked at anything that big), instead I launch the files I want from the finder, and when I do launch that file, I want it at the same size, place and settings that I left it. THAT is the only reason for me not to switch right away (oh, and having to pay some money hehe) If the program had some "save workspace on exit" thing that could work as well, but I'd really want some database somewhere with lots of windows settings.
Andreas
On 24/07/2005, at 18.36, Andreas Wahlin wrote:
[...] but I'd really want some database somewhere with lots of windows settings.
I doubt that will happen, but with metadata something similar could be done, with the data distributed instead of centralized — the Mac way :-).
-- Sune.
Why not? BBedit does it so it can't be impossible at least, many programs remember their windows settings... every finder window remembers it's settings (though that gets stored in the .DS_store file I suppose). And it should really be centralised I think if the files are to be distributed to people, even though I know that doesen't seem to be the mac way (embedding images in mp3 files ala iTunes artwork is probably THE stupidest data handling I've ever seen)
Andreas
On Jul 24, 2005, at 21:56 , Sune Foldager wrote:
On 24/07/2005, at 18.36, Andreas Wahlin wrote:
[...] but I'd really want some database somewhere with lots of windows settings.
I doubt that will happen, but with metadata something similar could be done, with the data distributed instead of centralized — the Mac way :-).
-- Sune.
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
On 24/07/2005, at 22.04, Andreas Wahlin wrote:
Why not? BBedit does it so it can't be impossible at least,
It's not so much if it's possible as it's if it's desireable, I think.
many programs remember their windows settings... every finder window remembers it's settings (though that gets stored in the .DS_store file I suppose). And it should really be centralised I think if the files are to be distributed to people,
But what if you move the files around yourself? What if you want to edit it somewhere else? I don't think doing it centralized is a good idea, but let's see what Allan says about it :-).
even though I know that doesen't seem to be the mac way (embedding images in mp3 files ala iTunes artwork is probably THE stupidest data handling I've ever seen)
I kinda thought so at first, but I changed my mind. Nice to be able to give people files with artwork in them, and if you have an iPod photo etc. it will also show up there. What would you rather, also take ID3 info out of the files and stuff it in a database? :-).
-- Sune.
On 24/07/2005, at 22.10, Sune Foldager wrote:
many programs remember their windows settings... every finder window remembers it's settings (though that gets stored in the .DS_store file I suppose). And it should really be centralised I think if the files are to be distributed to people,
But what if you move the files around yourself? What if you want to edit it somewhere else? I don't think doing it centralized is a good idea, but let's see what Allan says about it :-).
It's going to be de-centralized, and it's going to use filesystem metadata. It's just that thre was no way to do that before Tiger, ignoring here deprecated resource forks.
On 24/07/2005, at 22.21, Allan Odgaard wrote:
It's going to be de-centralized, and it's going to use filesystem metadata. It's just that thre was no way to do that before Tiger, ignoring here deprecated resource forks.
Or by implementing it yourself, ala .DS_Store but that's just messy :- p. It's too bad it took until Tiger to get metadata.. but then again, Mac OS's the only OS I am aware of, which has it.
-- Sune.
On Jul 24, 2005, at 22:21 , Allan Odgaard wrote:
On 24/07/2005, at 22.10, Sune Foldager wrote:
many programs remember their windows settings... every finder window remembers it's settings (though that gets stored in the .DS_store file I suppose). And it should really be centralised I think if the files are to be distributed to people,
But what if you move the files around yourself? What if you want to edit it somewhere else? I don't think doing it centralized is a good idea, but let's see what Allan says about it :-).
It's going to be de-centralized, and it's going to use filesystem metadata. It's just that thre was no way to do that before Tiger, ignoring here deprecated resource forks.
Does that mean it's coming? I tried project thing, but the windows don't seem to keep their individual positions onscreen when I "open in new window". Also, whether I have soft wrap on or off does not get saved either. Now, since Sune Foldager actually asked if this behaviour is desirable, I should perhaps try to motivate it a bit. I have many different applications (obviously), and all apps work a bit different. I don't want to learn a file navigator for each and every application that I use. Instead, I have the Finder which is my universal file handling utility. Now the Finder should focus on handling my files, while different applications focus on using those files. I can appreciate the need for project managment and such things as special power tools and I might even start to use them someday, but for now I like the finder. Thus; I don't care for the project manager at all. Why do I want windows to be in the same state all the time? Well it's like leaving a sheet of paper. I put stuff in different places, and when I return I expect them to be there, call me anal (I hope that means "overly tidy" in English as well) but I get very frustrated when someone opens my closed door, says something and then goes away without closing it (i.e returning it to the state it was before; my prefered state). Now for my closing argument, which will also dismiss tabs (again, I have used them and liked them, and many people seem to love them, I'm just saying I don't use tabs much on os x). Say I have two files, I edit one but want to read stuff from the other, I align them next to each other so I can do this. This is what a big screen is for, and everybody seems to like big screen, or even two screens! Yet, when I close one window or quit TextMate, I won't find my window in the same spot I left it, meannig I might have to realign it again in order to get it where I wanted it. Besides, the F10-expose function does not work with tabs (although I saw some app that actually "split" the tabs up in individual windows during expose, very nice). There is also the visual recognition of a file, I know where I am also because I know where that window is on my screen. Now this may sound rather stupid but it's actually true, my eyes flicker around the screen focusing on the area I know I'm at. For instance, my javascript files are up on the right, my php files more in the center etc ... (speaking about my finder windows here) There is a wonderful article on this over at ars technica at http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/finder.ars
So, bottom line is, I like to navigate my files with the finder, I like to find things they way I left them.
Now I don't want to sound grumpy, I just try to motivate my needs and hope that in the future windows will stay as I left them ... any comments?
Andreas
On 24/07/2005, at 22.56, Andreas Wahlin wrote:
It's going to be de-centralized, and it's going to use filesystem metadata. It's just that there was no way to do that before Tiger, ignoring here deprecated resource forks.
Does that mean it's coming?
Yes.
I tried project thing, but the windows don't seem to keep their individual positions onscreen when I "open in new window".
I only meant the actual project window, which files were open (in tabs), selection/position in these files, drawer size etc.
Also, whether I have soft wrap on or off does not get saved either.
Well, that's because I placed file type specific settings in the included Source and Text bundles. I'll remove these for 1.1b16, since everybody thinks it's a bug...
[...] I should perhaps try to motivate it a bit. I have many different applications (obviously), and all apps work a bit different. I don't want to learn a file navigator for each and every application that I use. Instead, I have the Finder which is my universal file handling utility.
I doubt you'll convince many here that the Finder is a good project manager ;)
Does that mean it's coming?
Yes.
oooo, can hardly wait ... any estimated time on it? (am I pressing to much here?)
I doubt you'll convince many here that the Finder is a good project manager ;)
ehm, *coughs a bit* no I suppose not :) But if you would only use it SPATIALLY, then ... *shuts up*
Andreas
I kinda thought so at first, but I changed my mind. Nice to be able to give people files with artwork in them, and if you have an iPod photo etc. it will also show up there. What would you rather, also take ID3 info out of the files and stuff it in a database? :-).
Hey, that's true ... I suppose it's a question of whether the recipient will be able to read the meta/extra-data or not. ID3 tags are universally recognized, iTunes artwork is not. Even though the iTunes artwork does create redundancy ... It is a rather tricky question .. One that Allan will have to answer in this case hehe
Andreas
On 24/07/2005, at 22.58, Andreas Wahlin wrote:
Hey, that's true ... I suppose it's a question of whether the recipient will be able to read the meta/extra-data or not. ID3 tags are universally recognized, iTunes artwork is not. Even though the iTunes artwork does create redundancy ... It is a rather tricky question .. One that Allan will have to answer in this case hehe
Given development of late, I am pretty sure the answer is 'metadata as much as possible'. Anybody who tried a messed of Windows registry also knows who centralized things can suck at times :-p.
-- Sune.
Given development of late, I am pretty sure the answer is 'metadata as much as possible'. Anybody who tried a messed of Windows registry also knows who centralized things can suck at times :-p.
Thas single argument sold me right away! It's also rather "oldskool" to try and preserve the little diskspace that centralisation saves, given that disk space is rather cheap these days. And as you said, local is portable.
Andreas
On 24/07/2005, at 18.36, Andreas Wahlin wrote:
[...] instead I launch the files I want from the finder
If the files are from the same folder, try dragging the folder to TM instead, then you can open the files within TM, get tabs, and if you save the project it keeps all file state in the saved project file -- and you get cmd-T for much faster opening of files.
I saw your post on the TM blog, and really wanted to get in touch with you about it. Having worked with the XHTML/CSS/JS/PHP syntaxes over the past few months, I know where some of the weaknesses are and many of them have been noted for a long time, but it is always good to hear from someone new and fresh.
The problems we are having with the (X)HTML syntaxes are how to structure them up, avoiding repetitions, making them work with multiple other syntaxes (such as PHP, Ruby, etc). Many of the causes for these limitations have just been removed in 1.1b14+, and I am trying to rework the (X)HTML syntaxes to work better, including specific level highlighting like the <form> tags you mentioned.
Actually, if you look at the PHP syntax you will find that there are specific syntax groups for each of the various function groups, so that you could have MySQL specific functions in green, while the Array specific functions are Yellow if you would want that, and the ultimate aim of the (X)HTML syntaxes are something along those lines.
The problem with (X)HTML is that it's a beast in my mind, and kind of hard to grasp firmly at times. So if you can find the time and energy to help with that we all would be grateful
What would I/we do ... is there some organised taskforce behind this or is it just to come up with ideas? I don't know if I feel up to develop some sort of standard and sort up the entire XHTML language nice and tidy, but I could sure give feedback and requests and ideas.
Is there some current special problems or anything to look at? To be honest I don't know how deep I want to go, but it could be fun to be a small part at least, so things can go my way ;)
PS: Just for clarification I am just a happy TM user that is helping out with some of the WebDev syntaxes.
Yep, good to know.
Andreas
blast, I forgot ... about syntax coloring, is someone working on more schemes for that more or less actively? Like I said on the blog, I think a BBedit+Dreamweaver scheme would be a good thing for switchers to ease them in.
Andreas
On 24/07/2005, at 19.15, Andreas Wahlin wrote:
blast, I forgot ... about syntax coloring, is someone working on more schemes for that more or less actively? Like I said on the blog, I think a BBedit+Dreamweaver scheme would be a good thing for switchers to ease them in.
Ehm a BBEdit scheme?? Whats that?
-- Sune.
Sorry, meant syntax colouring scheme (or whatever you call it)
Andreas
On Jul 24, 2005, at 21:57 , Sune Foldager wrote:
On 24/07/2005, at 19.15, Andreas Wahlin wrote:
blast, I forgot ... about syntax coloring, is someone working on more schemes for that more or less actively? Like I said on the blog, I think a BBedit+Dreamweaver scheme would be a good thing for switchers to ease them in.
Ehm a BBEdit scheme?? Whats that?
-- Sune.
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
On 24/07/2005, at 22.01, Andreas Wahlin wrote:
Sorry, meant syntax colouring scheme (or whatever you call it)
Ah, themes. Used to be called that at least. So by BBEdit you mean colors similar to those it uses? But you should be able to do that yourself in 5 mins I think? But how different are BBEdit colors from, say, Mac Classic or iPlastic anyway?
-- Sune.
In a small gesture of giving something back, I modified my iPlastic theme after the BBedit colours, although I suppose it might almost be more work to get it to work correctly than even doing it from scratch (I wasn't to sure about what to do with all the entities and scopes, so I scrapped everything except the BBedit names and it's not working for PHP, only HTML, and some things like images need scopes). So if anyone wants this to build a good worknig BBedit scheme around it (making PHP embed work for example) I'd be glad to send you the preference file if you tell me where to get it :) Or I could send the names and corresponding RGB colours as a normal text file, if that's easier.
Andreas
-
Allan Odgaard -
Andreas Wahlin -
Mats Persson -
Sune Foldager