I wrote this up and tried to send it earlier (via the wrong account… oops, it was rejected). I must say, my thoughts go very much with Ken, in that I like this list, it has been extremely helpful and friendly, and this discussion is starting to sound more like personal attacks than reasonable discourse. With that, here are my thoughts:
Kafi, you are absolutely correct that "just because it's open source does not mean you must pay". At the same time, just because it has an open source license does not mean that the developer is required to give it away for free. Often, open source projects ARE free, and this is a perk for many users… but it should never be assumed that free software is a RIGHT of the user. Additionally, most of the open source projects you mention have MANY contributors who work on the project in their spare time, while TM2 has (essentially) just Mr. Odgaard, so in a way, yes, his time is worth more than many of those others (only because this project workload isn't being split among many developers).
As many others have said, if you find it useful, pay for it. If you are unable to pay for it, find a way to earn the money, or find another tool. Perhaps Mr. Odgaard will offer some sort of academic or non-commercial license, but in no way is he compelled to do so by releasing TextMate2 under an open source license.
With all that said, as a Ph.D. student, I never turn down academic discounts. TM has an academic discount of 15% available for students or staff at academic institutions. I'll purchase a license if I decide to write my thesis in TM2 rather than Scrivener (a decision that will be occurring in the next few weeks…). Thus far, it's one of the more enjoyable text editors I've used, and has piqued my interest away from my former editor of choice, TextWrangler (which IS free and supports LaTeX syntax, if you demand those qualities in your software, Kafi).
Anyway, sorry for the tirade; this is a matter in which I'm slowly maturing beyond my teenage piracy habits, and something which I've given a lot of thought to in the past couple of years.
Dustin Wheeler mskblackbelt@me.com
On Jul 18, 2013, at 3:40 PM, textmate-request@lists.macromates.com wrote:
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of textmate digest..." Today's Topics:
- Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? (Chris Knight)
- Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? (Bob Hartung)
- Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? (kafi)
- Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? (kafi)
- Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? (kafi)
- Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? (Ken Snyder)
- Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? (Melton Low (app))
From: Chris Knight cpk.stealth@gmail.com Subject: [TxMt] Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? Date: July 18, 2013 2:13:32 PM CDT To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com Reply-To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com
Take a look at the license agreements for the Qt cross-platform programming library. To use it commercially you must by licensing from Digia (formerly Nokia and before that Trolltech) and non-commecial use can use what is provided by the Qt-Project.
Qt is used by literally hundreds of applications including some pretty big ones such as KDE. Having to pay for a commercial license on open-source software is not new.
Here is a question for you. Why should anyone write software and give it away for you to use for free?
On Jul 18, 2013, at 12:03 PM, kafi wrote:
Just because Im using an open source software does not mean I need to pay for it. I have been using Open Office for personal projects for the last couple of years without paying anything.
Android, CHROME, Eclipse, GIMP, TrueCrypt, Open Office, LWJGL, and hundreds of other popular open source projects are simply FREE.
Maybe you are implying that you are putting more works in TM than these other projects?!!
Here is the question for you, give me one example of a popular open source software, where I need to purchase license key for non-commercial personal use.
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From: Bob Hartung rwhart@mchsi.com Subject: [TxMt] Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? Date: July 18, 2013 2:21:22 PM CDT To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com Reply-To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com
Wow! So much heat and no light. The cost of TextMate is peanuts compared going out to dinner and the beneficial results are far longer lasting.
Or you could just go out an pay several hundred dollars or more for some other word processor.
My $0.02
Bob ----- "Chris Knight" cpk.stealth@gmail.com wrote:
Take a look at the license agreements for the Qt cross-platform programming library. To use it commercially you must by licensing from Digia (formerly Nokia and before that Trolltech) and non-commecial use can use what is provided by the Qt-Project.
Qt is used by literally hundreds of applications including some pretty big ones such as KDE. Having to pay for a commercial license on open-source software is not new.
Here is a question for you. Why should anyone write software and give it away for you to use for free?
On Jul 18, 2013, at 12:03 PM, kafi wrote:
Just because Im using an open source software does not mean I need
to pay for
it. I have been using Open Office for personal projects for the last
couple
of years without paying anything.
Android, CHROME, Eclipse, GIMP, TrueCrypt, Open Office, LWJGL, and
hundreds
of other popular open source projects are simply FREE.
Maybe you are implying that you are putting more works in TM than
these
other projects?!!
Here is the question for you, give me one example of a popular open
source
software, where I need to purchase license key for non-commercial
personal
use.
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From: kafi kkaaffii@gmail.com Subject: [TxMt] Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? Date: July 18, 2013 2:27:04 PM CDT To: textmate@lists.macromates.com Reply-To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com
People here seems not be able to discuss without calling names.
Smith, mind your language. Do not call names. You are calling me parasite, but you have no manners.
Ive donated money and participated with code and time (forum) in several open source projects. Do not talk supposing stuff that you have no knowledge about.
You just picked Open Office? What about Android, Chrome, GIMP? Not convenient for your argument?
I have asked a simple question. Do I need to pay for the license of TM 2 for non-commercial personal use?
And, give me one example of a popular open source software, where I need to purchase license key for non-commercial personal use.
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From: kafi kkaaffii@gmail.com Subject: [TxMt] Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? Date: July 18, 2013 2:29:29 PM CDT To: textmate@lists.macromates.com Reply-To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com
I ve specifically said, non-commercial persoanl use, so your example does not work.
No open source software requires purchase of license for non-commerical personal usage. Try again.
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From: kafi kkaaffii@gmail.com Subject: [TxMt] Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? Date: July 18, 2013 2:35:27 PM CDT To: textmate@lists.macromates.com Reply-To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com
Chris Knight wrote
Why should anyone write software and give it away for you to use for free?
Go to the project website of Android, Open Office, GIMP, Chrome, Truecrypt, 7Zip, Apache web server, Java, etc. and read why these softwares are free to use. Maybe then you will learn about a great philosophy.
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From: Ken Snyder ken+textmate@ken.net Subject: [TxMt] Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? Date: July 18, 2013 3:06:45 PM CDT To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com Reply-To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com
Guys, this is a really nice list please try and be respectful to others on it. I think Kafi has been a unfairly treated ... I won't name names but if you could find it in yourself to drop him an email -- off the list preferably -- to apologise I think that would be very responsible thing to do.
Kafi, I think what you're running into in your comments is a growing concern from parts of the software development community in this rapid "race to zero" where consumers price expectations keep on being lowered and a developers hard work and skills are often undervalued. This is shame and doesn't have to be an outcome of OpenSource movement but its a real sensitivity and when we're wearing our "consumer hat" I think we all should try and support people who are doing great things. The old adage "nothing is truly free" is an important word of warning, especially when you site examples like Chrome, Android, Open Office, and Java you're talking about efforts that are being supported with a lot money from corporate entities who in many cases are intentionally sabotaging competitors margins. This isn't a self-sustaining system but rather a system that is propped up by corporate interests and the costs to consumers are there they are just hidden.
Anyway, I will say I'm sorry by the way you were treated but also that I understand some of the poorly expressed sentiment. I for one think what Allan has produced is outstanding and I will be paying for it even if I don't have to.
Ken
On 18 July 2013 20:35, kafi kkaaffii@gmail.com wrote: Chris Knight wrote
Why should anyone write software and give it away for you to use for free?
Go to the project website of Android, Open Office, GIMP, Chrome, Truecrypt, 7Zip, Apache web server, Java, etc. and read why these softwares are free to use. Maybe then you will learn about a great philosophy.
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From: "Melton Low (app)" softw.app@gmail.com Subject: [TxMt] Re: Do I have to pay for the final TM 2 license key? Date: July 18, 2013 3:40:32 PM CDT To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com Reply-To: TextMate users textmate@lists.macromates.com
+1
I share your sentiment.
Ken Snyder wrote:
Guys, this is a really nice list please try and be respectful to others on it. I think Kafi has been a unfairly treated ... I won't name names but if you could find it in yourself to drop him an email -- off the list preferably -- to apologise I think that would be very responsible thing to do.
Kafi, I think what you're running into in your comments is a growing concern from parts of the software development community in this rapid "race to zero" where consumers price expectations keep on being lowered and a developers hard work and skills are often undervalued. This is shame and doesn't have to be an outcome of OpenSource movement but its a real sensitivity and when we're wearing our "consumer hat" I think we all should try and support people who are doing great things. The old adage "nothing is truly free" is an important word of warning, especially when you site examples like Chrome, Android, Open Office, and Java you're talking about efforts that are being supported with a lot money from corporate entities who in many cases are intentionally sabotaging competitors margins. This isn't a self-sustaining system but rather a system that is propped up by corporate interests and the costs to consumers are there they are just hidden.
Anyway, I will say I'm sorry by the way you were treated but also that I understand some of the poorly expressed sentiment. I for one think what Allan has produced is outstanding and I will be paying for it even if I don't have to.
Ken
On 18 July 2013 20:35, kafi kkaaffii@gmail.com wrote: Chris Knight wrote
Why should anyone write software and give it away for you to use for free?
Go to the project website of Android, Open Office, GIMP, Chrome, Truecrypt, 7Zip, Apache web server, Java, etc. and read why these softwares are free to use. Maybe then you will learn about a great philosophy.
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Thanks for your reply Dustin. Im going to try TextWrangler, it seems great for my need. I ve been using TexShop and its not bad.
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Hi Kafi,
Having used the TM LaTeX bundle to write my masters and PhD theses, and now papers (and everything else!), I can say that it is a huge time saver. I would recommend that you also consider Sublime (I don't use it myself, but it does have bundle compatibility with TM, and so the LaTeX bundle should work nicely without too much effort).
When I was writing up my PhD I easily converted a handful of "writing-up-stage PhD students" to TM (one guy even bought a Mac for it) purely on the strength of the LaTeX bundle. There are some old (i.e. for TM1) screencasts that are a great place to start. They explain the basic functionality and give a feel for what's possible in the bundle: http://macromates.com/screencasts (though note that the "Project" one has changed a lot in TM2, but can easily be emulated using .tm_properties files). Be sure to checkout the project-wide auto-completions for references (both for \cite and \ref), pdfsync and of course snippets for creating sections/chapters/equations/references etc!
You're going to spend quite a while writing, and it won't be fun all the time, so I would say that it is well worth "shopping around" before settling on an editor :-).
Good luck!
David.
On 19 July 2013 13:59, kafi kkaaffii@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for your reply Dustin. Im going to try TextWrangler, it seems great for my need. I ve been using TexShop and its not bad.
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