On 4. Jul 2007, at 23:12, Max Lein wrote:
The problem with TextMate is that it essentially forces people to use UTF8.
Yes, and as I tried to explain, there is good reason it does that.
There are usually `good' reasons not to as well. For all I love about TextMate, it's a bit pushy here ;-)
I have yet to find a way how to teach TextMate that my default encoding is Latin1 (even though this is the default encoding which I have set in the prefs): as long as a TeX file doesn't contain any special characters, it will automatically assume they are UTF8
files
(ignoring my preference and -- if existant -- the metadata
connected
to that file).
When checking “use for existing files” it will respect your preference. However, I fixed the problem for next build, so when
files
with ASCII encoding can’t remain as ASCII, it will first try your preferred encoding (even when the “use for existing files” is not checked).
Well, my web pages use UTF8 ... so this option doesn't really solve the problem. (I am aware of said option, but it just shifts my problem.) As I said, an encoding per project option would be greatly appreciated (I'm not sure I understand the last part of your reply correctly and whether TextMate 2.0 would effectively resolve this issue).
[...]
However, going UTF8 is sometimes just not an option [...]
Maybe not, but the bundle commands (which was the topic of this thread) can’t be expected to work with your files, when those are not UTF-8. I.e. go with Latin-1 and use special characters, and you should be prepared to see no or garbled output from script runners (which show script output), diff commands (showing changes in your files), build commands (which quote parts of your source), log commands (showing SCM log entries), various validation/completion/ pretty-printing commands, a.s.o.
You clearly have the perspective of someone who codes (which is fine by me, just an observation), but I haven't noticed any garbled output while working with Latin1. That's probably due to the simple fact that I just use a very specific subset of TextMate's commands. For me, a one-time warning would be acceptable.
I frequently exchange files with people who work on Windows, Linux or Solaris and the standard encoding they use is usually Latin1. Yes, there are ways how to use UTF8 on other OS, but have you ever tried to convince someone to switch to UTF8 who still writes his papers in Plain TeX?
Would plain TeX not be ASCII? :)
... but my contribution isn't. The encoding is `hardcoded' into LaTeX (it's a simple command), so when the chapters are merged, we'd get into trouble (not necessarily with Plain TeX people of which there are admittedly very, very few left, but with all of my active co-workers). (We usually split our work into sections which are then compiled. Obviously any other wants to be able to compile the TeX code on his system without fiddling for half an hour. I've seen it happen often enough.)
Instead of blindly arguing for people to convert to UTF8 (which is what I would use if I got to choose), you should accept that people (= customers) want to and sometimes need to work with other encodings as well.
In what you replied to I gave a technical explanation of why it is highly infeasible to support other than UTF-8 for the various commands, which was the topic raised. Me accepting that some can’t use UTF-8 doesn’t really change that.
Well, I understand the reasons you gave, but people who use LaTeX need just functionality, most of which is provided by the LaTeX (or Beamer) bundle. I think if people consciously change the encoding to something other than UTF8, they have a good reason for doing so. Give them a warning (once) that some commands may not work would be acceptable to me. I haven't heard of people in my field using diff on their TeX source files, for instance. I've also never had any problems with TextMate's built-in commands that produced no or garbled output.
I can certainly understand if you'd rather fix other problems than these. But I think there are certain fields when this is just an essential feature and the people would even be willing to live with a smaller feature set.
I'm still longing for an `encoding per project' option which TextMate would stick to no matter what. And also an error message that tells me that I cannot save my .tex file in Latin1 because there are some (invisible) characters that prevent it from doing so (right now, it'll just revert to UTF8 without telling me).
I have commented on this a few times in the past; the lack of a warning is indeed very unfortunate, and it comes from the code that does this “bumping” of encoding not having access to the UI. A mistake 2.0 will be without -- and as for encoding per project, I can’t recall exactly how much I have said here, but 2.0 does move a lot of things to be more folder-oriented and has another approach to dealing with encodings, basically offloading this to customizable import/export hooks, so non-UTF-8 users should be able to get
whatever
they want.
That's very good news (although the first time I hear of those new features). I hope that you don't have to set these encoding hooks globally (not 100 % sure what you mean by that), as I mentioned, I use UTF8 whenever I can (e. g. for the websites I maintain) and Latin1 *when I have to*. Hence different projects, different encodings and a per project encoding seems like the best option to me. (I usually create a project for my papers (LaTeX) since LaTeX is very noisy and creates a phletora of files I almost surely don't need.) :-)
Max
UC Berkeley Department of Physics
On 7. Jul 2007, at 06:03, Max Lein wrote:
[...] You clearly have the perspective of someone who codes (which is fine by me, just an observation), but I haven't noticed any garbled output while working with Latin1.
This thread started because someone was using Latin1 for his LaTeX files (in the labels) and the reference completion did not work for him.
[...] I haven't heard of people in my field using diff on their TeX source files, for instance. I've also never had any problems with TextMate's built-in commands that produced no or garbled output.
If you use a version control system, which is not uncommon to use for LaTeX files, you (indirectly) run diff on the files when you ask what uncommitted changes you have, what someone else changed, who did a certain change, etc.
[...] That's very good news (although the first time I hear of those new features)
My reply [1] to your “using one encoding per project” letter last year:
I have taken note of the per-project encoding suggestion.
In general there is no need to repeat a request when I have already said I have taken note of it. Whether or not it will be implemented is rarely based on how much people argue for its usefulness.
[1]: http://lists.macromates.com/pipermail/textmate/2006-May/010232.html
Hello, In most editors, the "undo" command delete what you have written in a row, since you last started to write. However, TextMate only undo one character at a time. Is it possible to change, or to choose this feature somewhere ?
Thank you,
Maxime Boissonneault
On 7/7/07, Maxime Boissonneault maxime.boissonneault@usherbrooke.ca wrote:
Hello, In most editors, the "undo" command delete what you have written in a row, since you last started to write. However, TextMate only undo one character at a time. Is it possible to change, or to choose this feature somewhere ?
Afaik it's planned for TM2.0 but I'm not sure (so much stuff planned for it ;))
Niels
-
Allan Odgaard -
Max Lein -
Maxime Boissonneault -
Niels Kobschätzki