I just gave TextMate a try...
I'm sorry to say it was simply awful, which brings me up against the troubling paradox of TextMate's growing popularity. This is truly a big conundrum for me, one that I'd love to figure out...
The first thing I learn about working with TextMate is that to open a file I need to use a GUI. This is a bad start. I, and all other programmers I know, hate to use the mouse while coding, so I must conclude that TM's developers just do not know their target market. A very bad sign indeed. (Yes, I know that one can navigate a GUI with the keyboard, but it is awkward at best, not the kind of action I want to perform often.)
Fine, let's use the mouse. I open an HTML file and a JavaScript file. Now I have TWO windows open. Good grief... Let's see, in my typical coding session I work on at least a dozen buffers at any one time. So I suppose that, if I were using TextMate as my text editor, I'd have to wade through at least a dozen windows cluttering my desktop... Strike 2.
In the first 60 seconds or so, TextMate has already managed to look pretty darn awful to me, but I continue on the optimistic assumption that all the flaws I have found so far (which are deal breakers AFAIC) can be "customized away". (If so my only remaining misgiving would be regarding the supreme lack of customer awareness responsible for not having these hypothetical customizations as standard-out-of-the-box in the first place.)
But what followed is simply inexcusable.
I visit the JavaScript file and start using F1 to fold blocks of code. The third or fourth one of these F1s results in a beep (and no folding of the block), but no error message is visible anywhere, nor is any other indication of what TextMate is having a problem with.
Signalling an error without telling the user what the error is is an example ATROCIOUS software design. Revoke the developers' licenses, and put them all in jail for software engineering malpractice...
Seriously now, by this point I was already truly astonished that I ever even heard of TextMate to begin with.
After scanning the menus and the preferences and finding no clue on why the beep, I decide to try TextMate Help under the Help menu. I search for "beep" and get nothing; then I search for "error", and get a few hits. When I visit one of them, there's a lot of stuff on the page, nothing obviously devoted to errors, so I hit Cmd-F to search for the word "error", and all I get is yet another beep. The same thing happens when I visit other pages in the original results list.
What's going on here? Things have been bad enough so far that I'm suspecting the unthinkable, I'm suspecting that maybe TextMate's HELP pages are not accessible to Cmd-F. To test this hypothesis, I use Cmd-F to search for a word that I can clearly see on the page in front of me. Again, I get a beep. Whaddya know?
Please someone tell me how can it be that software like this is not only for sale, but actually SELLING??? What did I miss?
tlm
Hahahahhahahahahahaha....
Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:58 AM, tlm wrote:
I just gave TextMate a try...
I'm sorry to say it was simply awful, which brings me up against the troubling paradox of TextMate's growing popularity. This is truly a big conundrum for me, one that I'd love to figure out...
The first thing I learn about working with TextMate is that to open a file I need to use a GUI. This is a bad start. I, and all other programmers I know, hate to use the mouse while coding, so I must conclude that TM's developers just do not know their target market. A very bad sign indeed. (Yes, I know that one can navigate a GUI with the keyboard, but it is awkward at best, not the kind of action I want to perform often.)
Fine, let's use the mouse. I open an HTML file and a JavaScript file. Now I have TWO windows open. Good grief... Let's see, in my typical coding session I work on at least a dozen buffers at any one time. So I suppose that, if I were using TextMate as my text editor, I'd have to wade through at least a dozen windows cluttering my desktop... Strike 2.
In the first 60 seconds or so, TextMate has already managed to look pretty darn awful to me, but I continue on the optimistic assumption that all the flaws I have found so far (which are deal breakers AFAIC) can be "customized away". (If so my only remaining misgiving would be regarding the supreme lack of customer awareness responsible for not having these hypothetical customizations as standard-out-of-the-box in the first place.)
But what followed is simply inexcusable.
I visit the JavaScript file and start using F1 to fold blocks of code. The third or fourth one of these F1s results in a beep (and no folding of the block), but no error message is visible anywhere, nor is any other indication of what TextMate is having a problem with.
Signalling an error without telling the user what the error is is an example ATROCIOUS software design. Revoke the developers' licenses, and put them all in jail for software engineering malpractice...
Seriously now, by this point I was already truly astonished that I ever even heard of TextMate to begin with.
After scanning the menus and the preferences and finding no clue on why the beep, I decide to try TextMate Help under the Help menu. I search for "beep" and get nothing; then I search for "error", and get a few hits. When I visit one of them, there's a lot of stuff on the page, nothing obviously devoted to errors, so I hit Cmd-F to search for the word "error", and all I get is yet another beep. The same thing happens when I visit other pages in the original results list.
What's going on here? Things have been bad enough so far that I'm suspecting the unthinkable, I'm suspecting that maybe TextMate's HELP pages are not accessible to Cmd-F. To test this hypothesis, I use Cmd-F to search for a word that I can clearly see on the page in front of me. Again, I get a beep. Whaddya know?
Please someone tell me how can it be that software like this is not only for sale, but actually SELLING??? What did I miss?
tlm
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
Please inform us what editor you prefer, since you're such a critic.
On Mar 6, 2007, at 12:58 PM, tlm wrote:
I just gave TextMate a try...
I'm sorry to say it was simply awful, which brings me up against the troubling paradox of TextMate's growing popularity. This is truly a big conundrum for me, one that I'd love to figure out...
The first thing I learn about working with TextMate is that to open a file I need to use a GUI. This is a bad start. I, and all other programmers I know, hate to use the mouse while coding, so I must conclude that TM's developers just do not know their target market. A very bad sign indeed. (Yes, I know that one can navigate a GUI with the keyboard, but it is awkward at best, not the kind of action I want to perform often.)
Fine, let's use the mouse. I open an HTML file and a JavaScript file. Now I have TWO windows open. Good grief... Let's see, in my typical coding session I work on at least a dozen buffers at any one time. So I suppose that, if I were using TextMate as my text editor, I'd have to wade through at least a dozen windows cluttering my desktop... Strike 2.
In the first 60 seconds or so, TextMate has already managed to look pretty darn awful to me, but I continue on the optimistic assumption that all the flaws I have found so far (which are deal breakers AFAIC) can be "customized away". (If so my only remaining misgiving would be regarding the supreme lack of customer awareness responsible for not having these hypothetical customizations as standard-out-of-the-box in the first place.)
But what followed is simply inexcusable.
I visit the JavaScript file and start using F1 to fold blocks of code. The third or fourth one of these F1s results in a beep (and no folding of the block), but no error message is visible anywhere, nor is any other indication of what TextMate is having a problem with.
Signalling an error without telling the user what the error is is an example ATROCIOUS software design. Revoke the developers' licenses, and put them all in jail for software engineering malpractice...
Seriously now, by this point I was already truly astonished that I ever even heard of TextMate to begin with.
After scanning the menus and the preferences and finding no clue on why the beep, I decide to try TextMate Help under the Help menu. I search for "beep" and get nothing; then I search for "error", and get a few hits. When I visit one of them, there's a lot of stuff on the page, nothing obviously devoted to errors, so I hit Cmd-F to search for the word "error", and all I get is yet another beep. The same thing happens when I visit other pages in the original results list.
What's going on here? Things have been bad enough so far that I'm suspecting the unthinkable, I'm suspecting that maybe TextMate's HELP pages are not accessible to Cmd-F. To test this hypothesis, I use Cmd-F to search for a word that I can clearly see on the page in front of me. Again, I get a beep. Whaddya know?
Please someone tell me how can it be that software like this is not only for sale, but actually SELLING??? What did I miss?
tlm
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
Not at all true. TextMate comes with a cl executable which allows for opening of files and directories via the command-line.
On Mar 6, 2007, at 12:58 PM, tlm wrote:
The first thing I learn about working with TextMate is that to open a file I need to use a GUI. This is a bad start. I, and all other programmers I know, hate to use the mouse while coding, so I must conclude that TM's developers just do not know their target market. A very bad sign indeed. (Yes, I know that one can navigate a GUI with the keyboard, but it is awkward at best, not the kind of action I want to perform often.)
For those who didn't believe what I wrote, below I include detailed instructions so that you can reproduce what I reported with your very own little copy of TextMate!
On 3/6/07, Michael Gregoire mgee@gwi.net wrote:
Not at all true. TextMate comes with a cl executable which allows for opening of files and directories via the command-line.
Are you telling me that every time I want to open a new file I have the choice of either using the GUI or switching to a Terminal window so that I can use the CLI? I certainly prefer the latter over the former, but it is awkward at best. Sheesh...
As for the Help business, for those who dare to see how much your beloved TM's Help sucks, try this. Switch to the Finder, invoke Help, in the search box enter anything you like, for example "preferences", click on the first result, and now use Cmd-F to search for occurrences of a particular word in that page. Pick a word you know is there. Success! (So don't blame the OSX Help system for TM's developers' incompetence.)
Now try exactly the same thing with the TextMate Help. For added fun, put "project" in the search box, and pick the top hit "Working with multiple files". Now do Cmd-F and search for the word "project". BONK! BONK! BONK! Awesome, innit? And one can't blame it on OSX; the Help pages for Finder, Safari, Mail, etc., don't have this problem.
But now, let's behold this project business. In the help page I learn that, if I'm happy with a lot of dragging and dropping, it is very easy (and **FUN**) to create a project. I don't see the point in going through these hoops just to avoid having a zillion windows around. This is *at best* an annoyance. My editor keeps state between sessions without any of this nonsense. But, granted, given the choice of wading through a dozen windows and spending some quality time with my mouse and together assemble a project of all the files I'd care to edit, I guess I'd pick... Hmm.... I guess I'd just keep my $50.
In my original post I wrote that to design software to beep without giving the user an error message is an inexcusable bit of software engineering malpractice. Sure enough, out of all the copious rebuttal attempts I got, not a single one even tried to excuse it, so I guess my assessment was correct after all. I guess we only differ in that I have higher standards for software than you all, especially if I'm expected to pay for it.
For the responder who couldn't believe that this happened, try this. Create a file with the .js extension, and put this into it:
function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; }, }; }
Now, put the cursor on the first line and hit F1. BONK! But that's not the bad part. Yeah, the parser got confused and that's not great, but what really sucks is that TextMate gives no explanation to the user of what it is complaining about. In a small file like the one above it is easy to guess what the problem is; but in a more realistic situation it's much harder to pinpoint the problem.
To the responder who protested that I had not taken the time to learn about TextMate, I just want to point out that I ran into all these problems in literally less than 2 minutes of use. Well-designed software doesn't perform so poorly even when the user is starting out.
But I'm glad you all love your TextMate. Standards for software are very low I suppose. And paid software to boot! Too bad.
Now, please proceed with your wallowing.
kj
On 6 Mar 2007, at 21:14, tlm wrote:
On 3/6/07, Michael Gregoire mgee@gwi.net wrote:
Not at all true. TextMate comes with a cl executable which allows for opening of files and directories via the command-line.
Are you telling me that every time I want to open a new file I have the choice of either using the GUI or switching to a Terminal window so that I can use the CLI? I certainly prefer the latter over the former, but it is awkward at best. Sheesh...
No, you can also double click on files. In fact you can open things TextMate understands by as many means as are available under Mac OS. What exactly do you want it to do that you believe it doesn't do now?
As for the Help business, for those who dare to see how much your beloved TM's Help sucks, try this. Switch to the Finder, invoke Help, in the search box enter anything you like, for example "preferences", click on the first result, and now use Cmd-F to search for occurrences of a particular word in that page. Pick a word you know is there. Success! (So don't blame the OSX Help system for TM's developers' incompetence.)
Now try exactly the same thing with the TextMate Help. For added fun, put "project" in the search box, and pick the top hit "Working with multiple files". Now do Cmd-F and search for the word "project". BONK! BONK! BONK! Awesome, innit? And one can't blame it on OSX; the Help pages for Finder, Safari, Mail, etc., don't have this problem.
But now, let's behold this project business. In the help page I learn that, if I'm happy with a lot of dragging and dropping, it is very easy (and **FUN**) to create a project. I don't see the point in going through these hoops just to avoid having a zillion windows around. This is *at best* an annoyance.
And at worst a complete load of bollocks that you've cargo culted into your tiny brain. If you only came here to troll then piss off. If you came to learn then shut up and learn.
On Mar 6, 2007, at 2:14 PM, tlm wrote:
For the responder who couldn't believe that this happened, try this. Create a file with the .js extension, and put this into it:
function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; }, }; }
Ha ha...now I KNOW you're an idiot. First, learn javascript. Your syntax is WRONG. Gee, I wish I had an editor that could read my mind and correct my crappy syntax. (BTW, js is probably the easiest programming language on the planet. If you can't write it, you certainly don't need an editor with the power of TextMate. Try Windows Notepad. Please, for all our sakes.)
Michael Jackson
On 6 Mar 2007, at 21:21, Michael Jackson wrote:
Ha ha...now I KNOW you're an idiot. First, learn javascript. Your syntax is WRONG.
Actually his syntax is just fine. What did you think was wrong with it?
[18:51] andy $ js js> js> function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; }, }; } js> x = foo() [object Object] js> x.bar(1, 2) 3
Andy,
It should be:
function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; } }; }
NOT
function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; }, <-- comma indicates that this key/value pair should be followed by at least one more in this object }; }
Your browser may have parsed it, I dunno. I didn't try it. But with an editor that relies on regular expressions to match syntax, something as small as this would probably throw it off.
Michael
On Mar 6, 2007, at 2:24 PM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
On 6 Mar 2007, at 21:21, Michael Jackson wrote:
Ha ha...now I KNOW you're an idiot. First, learn javascript. Your syntax is WRONG.
Actually his syntax is just fine. What did you think was wrong with it?
[18:51] andy $ js js> js> function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; }, }; } js> x = foo() [object Object] js> x.bar(1, 2) 3
-- Andy Armstrong, hexten.net
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
What's throwing off the folding is the comment placed in the first column. TextMate doesn't care about the presence or absence of that comma when it looks for folds. It has patterns to match the start of a fold and the end of a fold. It uses these patterns and indention level to determine where fold points are and how to pair them. It doesn't parse what is in-between.
If the user had pressed cmd+/ while on the "bar: function ( x ) {" line, it would have added the comment characters after the leading whitespace instead of the front of the line. Like this:
function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; }, }; }
The function will fold properly when written that way, although TM still sees the commented line as a fold point, something that should probably be fixed.
-Brad
On Mar 6, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Michael Jackson wrote:
Andy,
It should be:
function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; } }; }
NOT
function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; }, <-- comma indicates that this key/value pair should be followed by at least one more in this object }; }
Your browser may have parsed it, I dunno. I didn't try it. But with an editor that relies on regular expressions to match syntax, something as small as this would probably throw it off.
Michael
On Mar 6, 2007, at 2:24 PM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
On 6 Mar 2007, at 21:21, Michael Jackson wrote:
Ha ha...now I KNOW you're an idiot. First, learn javascript. Your syntax is WRONG.
Actually his syntax is just fine. What did you think was wrong with it?
[18:51] andy $ js js> js> function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; }, }; } js> x = foo() [object Object] js> x.bar(1, 2) 3
-- Andy Armstrong, hexten.net
_ For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
By the way, to fix the "OMFG CRAPPY FOLDING IN MY JS CODE!!!!!" ...
change the Javascript language definition to ignore lines that start with "//" by replacing the first ".*" with "[^//]*"
Right on John. Thanks!
On Mar 6, 2007, at 2:48 PM, John Cromartie wrote:
By the way, to fix the "OMFG CRAPPY FOLDING IN MY JS CODE!!!!!" ...
change the Javascript language definition to ignore lines that start with "//" by replacing the first ".*" with "[^//]*"
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
Sorry, I should clarify, this is specifically in the "foldingStartMarker" attribute of the language.
MAN does TextMate SUCK when I can fix this sort of problem in about 10 seconds!
On 3/6/07, John Cromartie jcromartie@gmail.com wrote:
By the way, to fix the "OMFG CRAPPY FOLDING IN MY JS CODE!!!!!" ...
change the Javascript language definition to ignore lines that start with "//" by replacing the first ".*" with "[^//]*"
I wrote my funny reply because the dude is obviously a troll. Don't feed the trolls.
This is a great example of why I love this editor so much. Awesome community support. Thanks John!
On Mar 6, 2007, at 2:50 PM, John Cromartie wrote:
Sorry, I should clarify, this is specifically in the "foldingStartMarker" attribute of the language.
MAN does TextMate SUCK when I can fix this sort of problem in about 10 seconds!
On 3/6/07, John Cromartie jcromartie@gmail.com wrote:
By the way, to fix the "OMFG CRAPPY FOLDING IN MY JS CODE!!!!!" ...
change the Javascript language definition to ignore lines that start with "//" by replacing the first ".*" with "[^//]*"
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
Not *quite* right, since this would ignore any lines that have even a single '/' character prior to the function keyword ([...] defines a character class, so having two "/" in the set will still just match any "/" character).
So, if you had a line like this:
var foo = { delimiter: "/", parser: function(str) { // parse code goes here } };
but even if you fixed the pattern, it's still valid to say:
var foo = { delimiter: "//", parser: function(str) { // parse code goes here } };
Granted this is an edge case, but as a developer, I love thinking up edge cases. Can't help myself.
-Brad
On Mar 6, 2007, at 1:48 PM, John Cromartie wrote:
By the way, to fix the "OMFG CRAPPY FOLDING IN MY JS CODE!!!!!" ...
change the Javascript language definition to ignore lines that start with "//" by replacing the first ".*" with "[^//]*"
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
On 6 Mar 2007, at 21:30, Michael Jackson wrote:
Your browser may have parsed it, I dunno. I didn't try it. But with an editor that relies on regular expressions to match syntax, something as small as this would probably throw it off.
As in Perl that comma is optional. Makes it easier to extend lists.
IE6 doesn't like it but that doesn't make it bad syntax.
On 6 Mar 2007, at 21:46, Michael Jackson wrote:
Interesting...and I thought that most people in the world were actually still using IE6. My apologies, maybe I'm the one who's out of the loop here...
I'm not saying it's wise to use it - just that it's a known JS idiom rather than a syntax error. I'm certainly not advocating its use :)
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:41:28 -0000, Andy Armstrong andy@hexten.net wrote:
Your browser may have parsed it, I dunno. I didn't try it. But with an editor that relies on regular expressions to match syntax, something as small as this would probably throw it off.
As in Perl that comma is optional. Makes it easier to extend lists.
Unfortunately ECMAScript specification really forbids commas in such places.
On 6 Mar 2007, at 23:37, porneL wrote:
Your browser may have parsed it, I dunno. I didn't try it. But with an editor that relies on regular expressions to match syntax, something as small as this would probably throw it off.
As in Perl that comma is optional. Makes it easier to extend lists.
Unfortunately ECMAScript specification really forbids commas in such places.
So I see. Although strangely a trailing comma is allowed in array literals.
If we're being pedantic though Michael referred to JavaScript and it's not a syntax error in SpiderMonkey. Of course you could argue that that's a bug in SpiderMonkey and I'd probably just shut up at that point :)
Are you telling me that every time I want to open a new file I have the choice of either using the GUI or switching to a Terminal window so that I can use the CLI? I certainly prefer the latter over the former, but it is awkward at best. Sheesh...
WTF are you looking for??? As far as I know it's either CLI, GUI or key commands... Are you aware of some stealth telepathic navigation that I'm not?
Jeebus... go back to your copy of dreamweaver and stop bothering us with you impatience.
Please quit crying .. and stop using it if you don't like it. Stick with what you like best and stop complaining about what's missing or is wrong
Regards J.
But now, let's behold this project business. In the help page I learn that, if I'm happy with a lot of dragging and dropping, it is very easy (and **FUN**) to create a project. I don't see the point in going through these hoops just to avoid having a zillion windows around. This is *at best* an annoyance. My editor keeps state between sessions without any of this nonsense. But, granted, given the choice of wading through a dozen windows and spending some quality time with my mouse and together assemble a project of all the files I'd care to edit, I guess I'd pick... Hmm.... I guess I'd just keep my $50.
Again dipsh*t...
in CLI:
mate .
mate ~/project
mate whateverdamnfolderyouwanttoopenasaproject
click that Enter key and you have yourself a project sans drag/drop
Oh I forget, you don't like to have Terminal open at the same time as TextMate... you call yourself a developer?
Terminal is always open with my workflow anyway, I can't even fathom why you're having so much trouble with this.
On 3/6/07, Michael Gregoire mgee@gwi.net wrote:
Again dipsh*t...
Now, THAT hurt.
in CLI:
mate .
mate ~/project
mate whateverdamnfolderyouwanttoopenasaproject
click that Enter key and you have yourself a project sans drag/drop
Oh I forget, you don't like to have Terminal open at the same time as TextMate... you call yourself a developer?
You have a curiously limited view of the possibilies available to an application like this. Here's my preferred one (which TextMate, AFAICT, does not have):
Hit a key and you get a command-line with completion with some halfway-intelligent choice for the desired path (minus the filename) already filled in, which disappears if one hits another key. Every texteditor worth its salt that I know of has this option (along with the sillier ones you seem to like so much). (Yeah, TM has something like this for the files that are happy members of one's cute little project, but that's too limited for my taste. This projects business is the dumbest idea I can imagine... How about a "dollhouse" option? Wouldn't it be a whole lot purtier to have one's files in a *dollhouse*? *blink* *blink*)
Terminal is always open with my workflow anyway...
Mine is too, running screen and zsh full blast all the time baby. I just think it is supremely inelegant and cumbersome to require the user to switch to Terminal just to open a friggin file via the keyboard (and in the process creating a new friggin' window to boot).
As to the other replies: yes, as a few of you figured out, the problem with the folding has *nothing* to do with the syntax in the code I posted, but rather with a very faulty regular expression in TextMate's code, written by someone with a very weak grasp of regular expressions, I might add. (I can think of a ton of common situations that those regular expressions would miss.)
To the fellow who wanted to see an example of my software: I hate to burst your bubble kid but not all the code written out there in the big wide world is in the form of GUI-driven consumer-oriented apps; the code I write is proprietary custom software for financial data analysis; no GUI's in sight (thank god). That said, even though the number of users for this code is very small and its shelf-life measured in weeks or at most months, I spend a great number of brain cycles on the problem of producing useful error messages and diagnostics. In fact, I'd say that this activity consumes a surprisingly large fraction of my coding time, and error handling is one of the yardsticks by which I judge the quality of software, my own and anyone else's. Software with poor error reporting is just shoddy software in my book, I don't care what other bell and whistles it claims on its glossy webpage.
Maybe TextMate will eventually grow to fill its oversized, but undeserved, reputation, and to actually EARN the price on its tag (especially in the face of the extremely high quality of existing free alternatives). That would be great, but it ain't there yet, boys and girls, not by a long shot.
And, yeah, remember: QUIT FEEDING THE GODDAMN TROLL! Dammit.
The original poster works in a proprietary environment and doesn't use a GUI. So, exactly, why troll the TextMate user forum? It isn't a product the OP will ever use and, thus, improving TextMate has zero benefit to said OP.
Conversely, the ROI of OP's continued participation in this forum just isn't there.
My suggestion: Parse the drivel written so far, file a handful of bugs asking for fixes and/or improvements for the actionable items, then remove OP from the mailing list. Maybe OP will return, maybe not -- enough removals from the community and OP will go away.
b.bum
2007/3/7, tlm tlm1905@gmail.com:
Hit a key and you get a command-line with completion with some halfway-intelligent choice for the desired path (minus the filename) already filled in, which disappears if one hits another key. Every texteditor worth its salt that I know of has this option.
Sorry for continuing this thread. Cmd-O, Cmd-Shift-G will give you a tab-completed textfield where you can type the path of the file to open. Works in any Mac app that uses the standard open file dialog. Not quite what you wanted (2 keyboard shortcuts vs 1 key), but close.
On Mar 9, 2007, at 5:09 PM, Bertrand Landry-Hetu wrote:
2007/3/7, tlm tlm1905@gmail.com:
Hit a key and you get a command-line with completion with some halfway-intelligent choice for the desired path (minus the filename) already filled in, which disappears if one hits another key. Every texteditor worth its salt that I know of has this option.
Sorry for continuing this thread. Cmd-O, Cmd-Shift-G will give you a tab-completed textfield where you can type the path of the file to open. Works in any Mac app that uses the standard open file dialog. Not quite what you wanted (2 keyboard shortcuts vs 1 key), but close.
That's far from ideal since it doesn't offer you tab completion on files and directories, as the terminal does.
Haris Skiadas Department of Mathematics and Computer Science Hanover College
Charilaos Skiadas wrote:
On Mar 9, 2007, at 5:09 PM, Bertrand Landry-Hetu wrote:
Sorry for continuing this thread. Cmd-O, Cmd-Shift-G will give you a tab-completed textfield where you can type the path of the file to open. Works in any Mac app that uses the standard open file dialog. Not quite what you wanted (2 keyboard shortcuts vs 1 key), but close.
That's far from ideal since it doesn't offer you tab completion on files and directories, as the terminal does.
Actually (as I learned today), turns out it does. But it's case sensitive.
Also, typing / or ~ is easier than cmd-shift-g
-Jacob
On Mar 9, 2007, at 7:56 PM, Jacob Rus wrote:
Charilaos Skiadas wrote:
On Mar 9, 2007, at 5:09 PM, Bertrand Landry-Hetu wrote:
Sorry for continuing this thread. Cmd-O, Cmd-Shift-G will give you a tab-completed textfield where you can type the path of the file to open. Works in any Mac app that uses the standard open file dialog. Not quite what you wanted (2 keyboard shortcuts vs 1 key), but close.
That's far from ideal since it doesn't offer you tab completion on files and directories, as the terminal does.
Actually (as I learned today), turns out it does. But it's case sensitive.
Yes, and if there are more than one available completions it just selects the first one. You also can't see all options on multiple available completions.
Also, typing / or ~ is easier than cmd-shift-g
-Jacob
Haris Skiadas Department of Mathematics and Computer Science Hanover College
Charilaos Skiadas wrote:
On Mar 9, 2007, at 7:56 PM, Jacob Rus wrote:
Charilaos Skiadas wrote:
On Mar 9, 2007, at 5:09 PM, Bertrand Landry-Hetu wrote:
Sorry for continuing this thread. Cmd-O, Cmd-Shift-G will give you a tab-completed textfield where you can type the path of the file to open. Works in any Mac app that uses the standard open file dialog. Not quite what you wanted (2 keyboard shortcuts vs 1 key), but close.
That's far from ideal since it doesn't offer you tab completion on files and directories, as the terminal does.
Actually (as I learned today), turns out it does. But it's case sensitive.
Yes, and if there are more than one available completions it just selects the first one. You also can't see all options on multiple available completions.
Also, typing / or ~ is easier than cmd-shift-g
It actually would be pretty cool to have a nice "open by path" command with good auto-completion.
On 12 Mar 2007, at 21:26, Rick Gigger wrote:
Charilaos Skiadas wrote:
On Mar 9, 2007, at 7:56 PM, Jacob Rus wrote:
Charilaos Skiadas wrote:
On Mar 9, 2007, at 5:09 PM, Bertrand Landry-Hetu wrote:
Sorry for continuing this thread. Cmd-O, Cmd-Shift-G will give you a tab-completed textfield where you can type the path of the file to open. Works in any Mac app that uses the standard open file dialog. Not quite what you wanted (2 keyboard shortcuts vs 1 key), but close.
That's far from ideal since it doesn't offer you tab completion on files and directories, as the terminal does.
Actually (as I learned today), turns out it does. But it's case sensitive.
Yes, and if there are more than one available completions it just selects the first one. You also can't see all options on multiple available completions.
Also, typing / or ~ is easier than cmd-shift-g
It actually would be pretty cool to have a nice "open by path" command with good auto-completion.
I use my File/Path Completion tmCommand mentioned in http:// article.gmane.org/gmane.editors.textmate.general/18072 to open a file.
Just type in a TM window 'mate ', invoke that tmCommand, and finally press CTRL+R. It works fine for me. See also the screencast.
Hans
One more thing... If you didn't buy it why are you wasting your and everyone's time on the mailing list?
On 3/6/07, tlm tlm1905@gmail.com wrote:
In my original post I wrote that to design software to beep without giving the user an error message is an inexcusable bit of software engineering malpractice. Sure enough, out of all the copious rebuttal attempts I got, not a single one even tried to excuse it, so I guess my assessment was correct after all. I guess we only differ in that I have higher standards for software than you all, especially if I'm expected to pay for it.
For the responder who couldn't believe that this happened, try this. Create a file with the .js extension, and put this into it:
function foo () { return { // bar: function ( x ) { bar: function ( x, y ) { return x + y; }, }; }
Now, put the cursor on the first line and hit F1. BONK! But that's not the bad part. Yeah, the parser got confused and that's not great, but what really sucks is that TextMate gives no explanation to the user of what it is complaining about. In a small file like the one above it is easy to guess what the problem is; but in a more realistic situation it's much harder to pinpoint the problem.
I think this behavior is great. If I am hitting the "code folding" key, and it doesn't fold, then there's obviously a syntax problem. I don't have to guess. It's not a huge surprise. I think that the context of hitting the F1 key to fold code and getting no response is enough information for a COMPUTER PROGRAMMER to figure out that the parser can't figure out how to fold the current context.
Are you really that dense that you need your editor to hold your hand as you take baby-steps through writing code?
On Mar 6, 2007, at 4:14 PM, tlm wrote:
For those who didn't believe what I wrote, below I include detailed instructions so that you can reproduce what I reported with your very own little copy of TextMate!
Ok, TextMate isn't for you, congratulations. What is your point? What do you want from us?
Do you want us to help you use TextMate? Do you want to help make TextMate better? Do you want to report a specific bug?
If there is any specific action you expect us to take, please let us know.
thomas Aylott — subtleGradient — CrazyEgg — sixteenColors
On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:30:39 -0500, Thomas Aylott (subtleGradient) wrote:
If there is any specific action you expect us to take, please let us know.
He or she would very much like you to see the error of your ways and stop using TextMate, perhaps demanding a refund in the process.
Cheers, Andrew.
On Mar 7, 2007, at 4:37 AM, Andrew Green wrote:
On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:30:39 -0500, Thomas Aylott (subtleGradient) wrote:
If there is any specific action you expect us to take, please let us know.
He or she would very much like you to see the error of your ways and stop using TextMate, perhaps demanding a refund in the process.
Cheers, Andrew. -- :: article seven Andrew Green automatic internet andrew@article7.co.uk | www.article7.co.uk
It's all so clear to me now. How could I have ever been so misguided?!
BBEdit, here I come :P
thomas Aylott — subtleGradient — CrazyEgg — sixteenColors
On Mar 6, 2007, at 4:14 PM, tlm wrote:
As for the Help business, for those who dare to see how much your beloved TM's Help sucks, try this. Switch to the Finder, invoke Help, in the search box enter anything you like, for example "preferences", click on the first result, and now use Cmd-F to search for occurrences of a particular word in that page. Pick a word you know is there. Success! (So don't blame the OSX Help system for TM's developers' incompetence.)
For those that are curious:
I mostly was ignoring this, but knowing that Textmate used the OS X Help viewer, this one truly intrigued me. And interestingly enough, when I opened the help *in the Finder*, used the search box to find some text, and hit CMD+F to find text, and nothing. Not found.
Clicked in the window, and CMD+F worked like a champ. Same results in TxMt. It's the Help Viewer, not Textmate.
On 6. Mar 2007, at 22:14, tlm wrote:
[...] Are you telling me that every time I want to open a new file I have the choice of either using the GUI or switching to a Terminal window so that I can use the CLI? I certainly prefer the latter over the former, but it is awkward at best. Sheesh...
See http://macromates.com/textmate/manual/ working_with_multiple_files#moving_between_files_with_grace for other options.
[...] (So don't blame the OSX Help system for TM's developers' incompetence.)
When you select Help from TextMate, notice that a new icon appears in your dock. If you hover the mouse over it, it has a title of “Help Viewer”, you can control-click the icon and select “Show in Finder”, and you should see, that it reveals that the Help Viewer is located under Core Services -- I did not write this piece of software.
As for the problem you are seeing: after you have clicked on a search result, be sure to click the main window once more, now try the Find dialog, this will make it work (by making the HTML view the first responder) -- this is a problem with the Help Viewer, it also manifests itself by not allowing the arrow up/down keys to scroll the document, after clicking a search result.
[...] In my original post I wrote that to design software to beep without giving the user an error message is an inexcusable bit of software engineering malpractice [...] I guess we only differ in that I have higher standards for software than you all [...]
As a developer I am always interested in improving my skills. Given your attention to detail and high standards, would you have any software on the marked I could try out for inspiration?
tlm wrote:
For those who didn't believe what I wrote, below I include detailed instructions so that you can reproduce what I reported with your very own little copy of TextMate!
Hopefully what I write below will be clear enough for you to process in your own little copy of a head! Or wait a sec, maybe we'd get a more useful conversation if we cut the asstastic sarcasm, and started acting like adults! So with that out of the way, I'll try to be civil.
On 3/6/07, Michael Gregoire mgee@gwi.net wrote:
Not at all true. TextMate comes with a cl executable which allows for opening of files and directories via the command-line.
Are you telling me that every time I want to open a new file I have the choice of either using the GUI or switching to a Terminal window so that I can use the CLI? I certainly prefer the latter over the former, but it is awkward at best. Sheesh...
Er, no. You can use any method you like to open files. Personally I use Quicksilver, but if you want you can press ⌘O then ⌘⇧G, type whatever path you want, and press ↩↩. If the ⌘⇧G part is too long, you can just type '/' or '~' instead.
Alternately, if you don't like any of OS X's file opening methods, you can easily make your own TextMate command to open files on a path. As I said before, you'll probably be happier just using Quicksilver though.
As for the Help business, for those who dare to see how much your beloved TM's Help sucks, try this. Switch to the Finder, invoke Help, in the search box enter anything you like, for example "preferences", click on the first result, and now use Cmd-F to search for occurrences of a particular word in that page. Pick a word you know is there. Success! (So don't blame the OSX Help system for TM's developers' incompetence.)
Actually, this fails for me. In fact, the behavior is identical in the Finder and TextMate cases.
Now try exactly the same thing with the TextMate Help. For added fun, put "project" in the search box, and pick the top hit "Working with multiple files". Now do Cmd-F and search for the word "project". BONK! BONK! BONK! Awesome, innit? And one can't blame it on OSX; the Help pages for Finder, Safari, Mail, etc., don't have this problem.
Okay, now try the first couple steps in here again. Now insert a very tricky step. Look up at the menu bar and tell me what the name of the application is. Notice that it does not say "TextMate"
But now, let's behold this project business. In the help page I learn that, if I'm happy with a lot of dragging and dropping, it is very easy (and **FUN**) to create a project. I don't see the point in going through these hoops just to avoid having a zillion windows around. This is *at best* an annoyance. My editor keeps state between sessions without any of this nonsense. But, granted, given the choice of wading through a dozen windows and spending some quality time with my mouse and together assemble a project of all the files I'd care to edit, I guess I'd pick... Hmm.... I guess I'd just keep my $50.
Or, you could try to learn some new tricks. TextMate is not Emacs/Vim. It does not aspire to be. Those do not open new windows because an 80x24 terminal is not capable of handling windows. Fortunately, for the last 30 years or so (since the PARC Alto I think) we've had this nice ability to put different bits of content on different layers, and move them around. It's quite a neat concept! (and I'm not being sarcastic here. It really is a neat concept.)
Now, the TextMate way is to open one window for each project. I suggest you try it out instead of ranting. You might even come to like it as the rest of us have.
In my original post I wrote that to design software to beep without giving the user an error message is an inexcusable bit of software engineering malpractice. Sure enough, out of all the copious rebuttal attempts I got, not a single one even tried to excuse it, so I guess my assessment was correct after all. I guess we only differ in that I have higher standards for software than you all, especially if I'm expected to pay for it.
If every time the folding pattern fell down TM put up an error message, I would fly to Denmark and kick Allan myself. That said, the folding can definitely be improved so that these errors are less common (as you'll note I mentioned in my original reply).
To the responder who protested that I had not taken the time to learn about TextMate, I just want to point out that I ran into all these problems in literally less than 2 minutes of use. Well-designed software doesn't perform so poorly even when the user is starting out.
And no doubt someone who had never used any piece of complex software before would have similar issues. If you sat an unexperienced user down in front of Photoshop, the effect would be much worse.
But I'm glad you all love your TextMate. Standards for software are very low I suppose. And paid software to boot! Too bad.
Now, please proceed with your wallowing.
Yes, as a matter of fact we do. But we're a bit fed up with your complaints; standards for whining seem to have dropped very low I suppose. And unsolicited whining to boot! Too bad.
Now please don't let the door hit you on your way out.
-Jacob
On 3/6/07, tlm tlm1905@gmail.com wrote:
Are you telling me that every time I want to open a new file I have the choice of either using the GUI or switching to a Terminal window so that I can use the CLI? I certainly prefer the latter over the former, but it is awkward at best. Sheesh...
OMG, you mean I have to use the CLI!!!! Holly SHIT BATMAN!!!! It's the command line I'm so scarred HELP ME!! I thought you bathed in the Command line for breakfast Tim! As an example, let's say most of what you do is in the terminal (a.k.a. the shell, you do know what a shell is, right Tim?) well then type mate -w ~/path/to/project And vola it opens in TextMate and you know what? When you finish and close the project it returns you to the shell! WOW just like it SHOULD!
As for the Help business, for those who dare to see how much your beloved TM's Help sucks, try this. Switch to the Finder, invoke Help, in the search box enter anything you like, for example "preferences", click on the first result, and now use Cmd-F to search for occurrences of a particular word in that page. Pick a word you know is there. Success! (So don't blame the OSX Help system for TM's developers' incompetence.)
Now try exactly the same thing with the TextMate Help. For added fun, put "project" in the search box, and pick the top hit "Working with multiple files". Now do Cmd-F and search for the word "project". BONK! BONK! BONK! Awesome, innit? And one can't blame it on OSX; the Help pages for Finder, Safari, Mail, etc., don't have this problem.
I tried this and it worked just fine for me, it did the find just fine and selected the first instance of project, what a load of rubbish.
In my original post I wrote that to design software to beep without giving the user an error message is an inexcusable bit of software engineering malpractice. Sure enough, out of all the copious rebuttal attempts I got, not a single one even tried to excuse it, so I guess my assessment was correct after all. I guess we only differ in that I have higher standards for software than you all, especially if I'm expected to pay for it.
You do realize that the developer of TextMate along with TextMate won an Apple Developer Design Award recently. And it's well regarded throughout out the development/programing communities on both Mac, Windows, and Linux, just look at the TextMate clones popping up. Like http://www.e-texteditor.com/. Not to mention the error you're talking about is a MINOR error and should not get a dialog box every time it happened. That would be way too annoying. And plus you KNOW what is causing it a syntax error your JavaScript, is causing a problem with the folding!
To the responder who protested that I had not taken the time to learn about TextMate, I just want to point out that I ran into all these problems in literally less than 2 minutes of use. Well-designed software doesn't perform so poorly even when the user is starting out.
Ummm… TextMate is "power user" software it's not like iTunes for wana-be-programmers. If you're not going to take the time to understand how it works you won't be able to use it. The same thing can be said of Emacs of Vi (and that's not a diss to Emacs for Vi). The point is every text editor has a learning curve. If I tried to use my TM methods in Emacs I'd quickly find I couldn't do anything! I would NEED to learn how Emacs works!
But I'm glad you all love your TextMate. Standards for software are very low I suppose. And paid software to boot! Too bad.
Now let me be as polite as I can: Stop trolling and go away, or start learning!!!
-Brian
kj,
Be realistic. Passing judgement on a piece of software with just 1 or 2 hours of use is irresponsible. If you're going to evaluate software for a specific need, at least take the time to find out WHY it works the way it does instead of trying to impose your expectations on the way it should work! If you do have preconceived expectations, those expectations probably belong to the software you already use. In which case, why are you evaluating anything else???
Charley
tlm wrote:
To the responder who protested that I had not taken the time to learn about TextMate, I just want to point out that I ran into all these problems in literally less than 2 minutes of use. Well-designed software doesn't perform so poorly even when the user is starting out.
But I'm glad you all love your TextMate. Standards for software are very low I suppose. And paid software to boot! Too bad.
Now, please proceed with your wallowing.
kj
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
On 3/6/07, tlm tlm1905@gmail.com wrote:
To the responder who protested that I had not taken the time to learn about TextMate, I just want to point out that I ran into all these problems in literally less than 2 minutes of use. Well-designed software doesn't perform so poorly even when the user is starting out.
But I'm glad you all love your TextMate. Standards for software are very low I suppose. And paid software to boot! Too bad.
In all fairness, the people who love TM have used it a lot more than you. The text editor is one of our tools, and one that people expect to spend some time learning to master. Perhaps good software in general can just be picked up and used intuitively...but I don't think it works that way for something like a text editor which is a critical, powerful tool.
My only point here is that while you may not like it, it could be because you haven't taken the time to really dig deep into it. Of course you could just be wasting your time, it might end up to really be a piece of shit for you. Since you don't like it out of the gate, I see no reason why you should spend any more time with it.
I can understand your complaints if this were more of a consumer-oriented application...as you mentioned, good software doesn't give the user a lot of grief early on. However this editor is made for programmers, and nearly every programmer I know happily ignores little quirks - if he even notices them at all - if the powerful stuff he wants is accessible.
I hope you find something that works better for you.
Pat
I'm happy to say that I've just made a mail rule to put any message in this thread directly into the trash.
Please don't feed the troll.
S
Stephen F. Steiner Integrated Development Corporation ssteiner@integrateddevcorp.com www.integrateddevcorp.com (603)433-1232
On 6 Mar 2007, at 22:36, Lists In@IDC wrote:
I'm happy to say that I've just made a mail rule to put any message in this thread directly into the trash.
Please don't feed the troll.
But you won't see any troll feeding... Or this for that matter :)
One word... project... look into it before you start spewing off at the mouth about multiple windows.
On Mar 6, 2007, at 12:58 PM, tlm wrote:
In the first 60 seconds or so, TextMate has already managed to look pretty darn awful to me, but I continue on the optimistic assumption that all the flaws I have found so far (which are deal breakers AFAIC) can be "customized away". (If so my only remaining misgiving would be regarding the supreme lack of customer awareness responsible for not having these hypothetical customizations as standard-out-of-the-box in the first place.)
On 6 Mar 2007, at 17:58, tlm wrote:
The first thing I learn about working with TextMate is that to open a file I need to use a GUI.
$ mate filename
Fine, let's use the mouse. I open an HTML file and a JavaScript file. Now I have TWO windows open. Good grief... Let's see, in my typical coding session I work on at least a dozen buffers at any one time. So I suppose that, if I were using TextMate as my text editor, I'd have to wade through at least a dozen windows cluttering my desktop... Strike 2.
Drag the containing folder to the TM icon or create a project or
$ mate somedir
(If so my only remaining misgiving would be regarding the supreme lack of customer awareness responsible for not having these hypothetical customizations as standard-out-of-the-box in the first place.)
Sorry, you're talking absolute rubbish so far. I can't really be bothered to read about your other 'discoveries'.
Wow my friend. You need to learn how to use the program before you rag on it so much. For example, I could sit down at vi and say "this program sucks! I can't type anything!" But if I never learned about vi's modal editing features, I would sound like a moron posting to some vi mailing list about how I was unable to type anything.
So it is with you. You have not taken the time to learn the editor. Everything you mentioned in your email is absolutely possible, and much more.
Michael Jackson
On Mar 6, 2007, at 10:58 AM, tlm wrote:
I just gave TextMate a try...
I'm sorry to say it was simply awful, which brings me up against the troubling paradox of TextMate's growing popularity. This is truly a big conundrum for me, one that I'd love to figure out...
The first thing I learn about working with TextMate is that to open a file I need to use a GUI. This is a bad start. I, and all other programmers I know, hate to use the mouse while coding, so I must conclude that TM's developers just do not know their target market. A very bad sign indeed. (Yes, I know that one can navigate a GUI with the keyboard, but it is awkward at best, not the kind of action I want to perform often.)
Fine, let's use the mouse. I open an HTML file and a JavaScript file. Now I have TWO windows open. Good grief... Let's see, in my typical coding session I work on at least a dozen buffers at any one time. So I suppose that, if I were using TextMate as my text editor, I'd have to wade through at least a dozen windows cluttering my desktop... Strike 2.
In the first 60 seconds or so, TextMate has already managed to look pretty darn awful to me, but I continue on the optimistic assumption that all the flaws I have found so far (which are deal breakers AFAIC) can be "customized away". (If so my only remaining misgiving would be regarding the supreme lack of customer awareness responsible for not having these hypothetical customizations as standard-out-of-the-box in the first place.)
But what followed is simply inexcusable.
I visit the JavaScript file and start using F1 to fold blocks of code. The third or fourth one of these F1s results in a beep (and no folding of the block), but no error message is visible anywhere, nor is any other indication of what TextMate is having a problem with.
Signalling an error without telling the user what the error is is an example ATROCIOUS software design. Revoke the developers' licenses, and put them all in jail for software engineering malpractice...
Seriously now, by this point I was already truly astonished that I ever even heard of TextMate to begin with.
After scanning the menus and the preferences and finding no clue on why the beep, I decide to try TextMate Help under the Help menu. I search for "beep" and get nothing; then I search for "error", and get a few hits. When I visit one of them, there's a lot of stuff on the page, nothing obviously devoted to errors, so I hit Cmd-F to search for the word "error", and all I get is yet another beep. The same thing happens when I visit other pages in the original results list.
What's going on here? Things have been bad enough so far that I'm suspecting the unthinkable, I'm suspecting that maybe TextMate's HELP pages are not accessible to Cmd-F. To test this hypothesis, I use Cmd-F to search for a word that I can clearly see on the page in front of me. Again, I get a beep. Whaddya know?
Please someone tell me how can it be that software like this is not only for sale, but actually SELLING??? What did I miss?
tlm
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:58 AM, tlm wrote:
I just gave TextMate a try...
I'm sorry to say it was simply awful, which brings me up against the troubling paradox of TextMate's growing popularity. This is truly a big conundrum for me, one that I'd love to figure out...
Please someone tell me how can it be that software like this is not only for sale, but actually SELLING??? What did I miss?
tlm
I know! It's so horrible!
I really hate how the patterns fill in the enclosing pattern matches, like a ) for (. What is MORE ANNOYING is that no other app does this! So now I'm in mail typing ( and waiting, waiting, but damnit, no closing )!
I really hate that I can edit the source for the bundles. If it needs editing, surely its broken!
Now take the fact that TextMate has forced me to use it for posting to my Movable Type Blog. It was buggy, but I was lured into fixing the issues and then I found myself using it. I even changed my site to use tags over categories because it was more flexible and MarsEdit could not handle Tags. Damnit TextMate, even more work I had to do!
I'm really annoyed at the HTML include function. It was not handling " in variables, until I realized that oh I really should be using single quotes anyway. Shoot that TextMate for making me use proper quoting in my include files.
Oh! And it remembers what files I had open when I quit! WHAT IS UP WITH THAT! I was writing this steamy letter to my girlfriend in markdown (What girl doesn't love markdown syntax) and then I went to a friend's place. I fired up TextMate to edit a config file and there was my steamy letter! Grrrr! Oh wait, that didn't happen. but it does open the files I was last working on in my Xcode projects and saves me a bunch of time. Damnit, now I have to WORK vs. playing recent menu chicken dance!
I'm really annoyed that I can modify a bundle and keep a local version of just the changes, and they merge with fixes to other bundle bits with software updates. Where is the fun in that?
And since the blogging bundle was written in Ruby, which I had never used before, I had to LEARN Ruby to extend it. To hell with you Textmate for giving me a fun excuse to learn a new language!
I can't even begin to tell you how much time I have wasted watching screencasts only to learn something useful. Sheesh!
Oh how could I forget full keyboard navigation. I find myself in Mail.app bonking and beeping because I'm pressing keys it doesn't know about. grr!
I should just go back to TextEdit.
Steve
HA HA HA! Nice way to lighten up the 'discussion'... thanks.
On Mar 6, 2007, at 1:15 PM, Steven W. Riggins wrote:
On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:58 AM, tlm wrote:
I just gave TextMate a try...
I'm sorry to say it was simply awful, which brings me up against the troubling paradox of TextMate's growing popularity. This is truly a big conundrum for me, one that I'd love to figure out...
Please someone tell me how can it be that software like this is not only for sale, but actually SELLING??? What did I miss?
tlm
I know! It's so horrible!
I really hate how the patterns fill in the enclosing pattern matches, like a ) for (. What is MORE ANNOYING is that no other app does this! So now I'm in mail typing ( and waiting, waiting, but damnit, no closing )!
I really hate that I can edit the source for the bundles. If it needs editing, surely its broken!
Now take the fact that TextMate has forced me to use it for posting to my Movable Type Blog. It was buggy, but I was lured into fixing the issues and then I found myself using it. I even changed my site to use tags over categories because it was more flexible and MarsEdit could not handle Tags. Damnit TextMate, even more work I had to do!
I'm really annoyed at the HTML include function. It was not handling " in variables, until I realized that oh I really should be using single quotes anyway. Shoot that TextMate for making me use proper quoting in my include files.
Oh! And it remembers what files I had open when I quit! WHAT IS UP WITH THAT! I was writing this steamy letter to my girlfriend in markdown (What girl doesn't love markdown syntax) and then I went to a friend's place. I fired up TextMate to edit a config file and there was my steamy letter! Grrrr! Oh wait, that didn't happen. but it does open the files I was last working on in my Xcode projects and saves me a bunch of time. Damnit, now I have to WORK vs. playing recent menu chicken dance!
I'm really annoyed that I can modify a bundle and keep a local version of just the changes, and they merge with fixes to other bundle bits with software updates. Where is the fun in that?
And since the blogging bundle was written in Ruby, which I had never used before, I had to LEARN Ruby to extend it. To hell with you Textmate for giving me a fun excuse to learn a new language!
I can't even begin to tell you how much time I have wasted watching screencasts only to learn something useful. Sheesh!
Oh how could I forget full keyboard navigation. I find myself in Mail.app bonking and beeping because I'm pressing keys it doesn't know about. grr!
I should just go back to TextEdit.
Steve
For new threads USE THIS: textmate@lists.macromates.com (threading gets destroyed and the universe will collapse if you don't) http://lists.macromates.com/mailman/listinfo/textmate
Sorry to dogpile, but your email really made my day.
I'll try to be helpful though. :)
tlm wrote:
I just gave TextMate a try...
I'm sorry to say it was simply awful, which brings me up against the troubling paradox of TextMate's growing popularity. This is truly a big conundrum for me, one that I'd love to figure out...
Why is it troubling? Because it implies other people are understanding something you can't figure out and are afraid of missing something, or because you feel like TextMate threatens your existing workflow in some way?
The first thing I learn about working with TextMate is that to open a file I need to use a GUI. This is a bad start. I, and all other programmers I know, hate to use the mouse while coding, so I must conclude that TM's developers just do not know their target market. A very bad sign indeed. (Yes, I know that one can navigate a GUI with the keyboard, but it is awkward at best, not the kind of action I want to perform often.)
You need not use a gui to open a file, and nothing in TM needs the mouse. Everything can be done from the keyboard. This is not any more awkward than using the keyboard from emacs (okay, damn, that's a bit of a nonsense statement, I suppose; I can't imagine anything *more* awkward than emacs' command system).
Fine, let's use the mouse. I open an HTML file and a JavaScript file. Now I have TWO windows open. Good grief... Let's see, in my typical coding session I work on at least a dozen buffers at any one time. So I suppose that, if I were using TextMate as my text editor, I'd have to wade through at least a dozen windows cluttering my desktop... Strike 2.
Use a project. One window to rule them all. Check out the documentation: it explains things pretty well.
In the first 60 seconds or so, TextMate has already managed to look pretty darn awful to me, but I continue on the optimistic assumption that all the flaws I have found so far (which are deal breakers AFAIC) can be "customized away". (If so my only remaining misgiving would be regarding the supreme lack of customer awareness responsible for not having these hypothetical customizations as standard-out-of-the-box in the first place.)
There's really no need to customize anything away, but I'll agree that in this case there seems to be a severe lack of customer awareness, that is, awareness by the customer.
But what followed is simply inexcusable.
I visit the JavaScript file and start using F1 to fold blocks of code. The third or fourth one of these F1s results in a beep (and no folding of the block), but no error message is visible anywhere, nor is any other indication of what TextMate is having a problem with.
Hmm, I have no idea what this is. Hasn't been a problem for me. The folding system could use some improvement though. It's one of my least favorite parts of the app's current design (probably because I use lots of markdown and python, where the current system falls down)
Signalling an error without telling the user what the error is is an example ATROCIOUS software design. Revoke the developers' licenses, and put them all in jail for software engineering malpractice...
Hmm, you might be on to something here. And unfortunately, Allan lives in Copenhagen, where they seem to be jailing people right and left the last few days. Maybe some police can land on his roof and climb in through a window?
Seriously now, by this point I was already truly astonished that I ever even heard of TextMate to begin with.
After scanning the menus and the preferences and finding no clue on why the beep, I decide to try TextMate Help under the Help menu. I search for "beep" and get nothing; then I search for "error", and get a few hits. When I visit one of them, there's a lot of stuff on the page, nothing obviously devoted to errors, so I hit Cmd-F to search for the word "error", and all I get is yet another beep. The same thing happens when I visit other pages in the original results list.
What's going on here? Things have been bad enough so far that I'm suspecting the unthinkable, I'm suspecting that maybe TextMate's HELP pages are not accessible to Cmd-F. To test this hypothesis, I use Cmd-F to search for a word that I can clearly see on the page in front of me. Again, I get a beep. Whaddya know?
Yeah, Apple's help system kinda sucks. Supposedly they are improving it in OS X 10.5. I'm not too optimistic though, and personally think TM should just roll its own help system.
Please someone tell me how can it be that software like this is not only for sale, but actually SELLING??? What did I miss?
Hmm, I dunno. What *didn't* you miss?
-Jacob
On 3/6/07, Jacob Rus jrus@hcs.harvard.edu wrote:
Sorry to dogpile, but your email really made my day.
Please someone tell me how can it be that software like this is not only for sale, but actually SELLING??? What did I miss?
Hmm, I dunno. What *didn't* you miss?
Jacob, *you* made my day. :D
-- FredB
Jacob and Steve thanks for such insightful and amusing replies. I sure could use it after that imbecile posted his message. Guess there's one born everyday, oh well.
-Brian
On 3/6/07, Jacob Rus jrus@hcs.harvard.edu wrote:
Sorry to dogpile, but your email really made my day.
I'll try to be helpful though. :)
tlm wrote:
I just gave TextMate a try...
I'm sorry to say it was simply awful, which brings me up against the troubling paradox of TextMate's growing popularity. This is truly a big conundrum for me, one that I'd love to figure out...
Why is it troubling? Because it implies other people are understanding something you can't figure out and are afraid of missing something, or because you feel like TextMate threatens your existing workflow in some way?
The first thing I learn about working with TextMate is that to open a file I need to use a GUI. This is a bad start. I, and all other programmers I know, hate to use the mouse while coding, so I must conclude that TM's developers just do not know their target market. A very bad sign indeed. (Yes, I know that one can navigate a GUI with the keyboard, but it is awkward at best, not the kind of action I want to perform often.)
You need not use a gui to open a file, and nothing in TM needs the mouse. Everything can be done from the keyboard. This is not any more awkward than using the keyboard from emacs (okay, damn, that's a bit of a nonsense statement, I suppose; I can't imagine anything *more* awkward than emacs' command system).
Fine, let's use the mouse. I open an HTML file and a JavaScript file. Now I have TWO windows open. Good grief... Let's see, in my typical coding session I work on at least a dozen buffers at any one time. So I suppose that, if I were using TextMate as my text editor, I'd have to wade through at least a dozen windows cluttering my desktop... Strike 2.
Use a project. One window to rule them all. Check out the documentation: it explains things pretty well.
In the first 60 seconds or so, TextMate has already managed to look pretty darn awful to me, but I continue on the optimistic assumption that all the flaws I have found so far (which are deal breakers AFAIC) can be "customized away". (If so my only remaining misgiving would be regarding the supreme lack of customer awareness responsible for not having these hypothetical customizations as standard-out-of-the-box in the first place.)
There's really no need to customize anything away, but I'll agree that in this case there seems to be a severe lack of customer awareness, that is, awareness by the customer.
But what followed is simply inexcusable.
I visit the JavaScript file and start using F1 to fold blocks of code. The third or fourth one of these F1s results in a beep (and no folding of the block), but no error message is visible anywhere, nor is any other indication of what TextMate is having a problem with.
Hmm, I have no idea what this is. Hasn't been a problem for me. The folding system could use some improvement though. It's one of my least favorite parts of the app's current design (probably because I use lots of markdown and python, where the current system falls down)
Signalling an error without telling the user what the error is is an example ATROCIOUS software design. Revoke the developers' licenses, and put them all in jail for software engineering malpractice...
Hmm, you might be on to something here. And unfortunately, Allan lives in Copenhagen, where they seem to be jailing people right and left the last few days. Maybe some police can land on his roof and climb in through a window?
Seriously now, by this point I was already truly astonished that I ever even heard of TextMate to begin with.
After scanning the menus and the preferences and finding no clue on why the beep, I decide to try TextMate Help under the Help menu. I search for "beep" and get nothing; then I search for "error", and get a few hits. When I visit one of them, there's a lot of stuff on the page, nothing obviously devoted to errors, so I hit Cmd-F to search for the word "error", and all I get is yet another beep. The same thing happens when I visit other pages in the original results list.
What's going on here? Things have been bad enough so far that I'm suspecting the unthinkable, I'm suspecting that maybe TextMate's HELP pages are not accessible to Cmd-F. To test this hypothesis, I use Cmd-F to search for a word that I can clearly see on the page in front of me. Again, I get a beep. Whaddya know?
Yeah, Apple's help system kinda sucks. Supposedly they are improving it in OS X 10.5. I'm not too optimistic though, and personally think TM should just roll its own help system.
Please someone tell me how can it be that software like this is not only for sale, but actually SELLING??? What did I miss?
Hmm, I dunno. What *didn't* you miss?
-Jacob
On 3/6/07, Steven W. Riggins mailinglists@geeksrus.com wrote:
I really hate how the patterns fill in the enclosing pattern matches, like a ) for (. What is MORE ANNOYING is that no other app does this! So now I'm in mail typing ( and waiting, waiting, but damnit, no closing )!
I really hate that I can edit the source for the bundles. If it needs editing, surely its broken!
Now take the fact that TextMate has forced me to use it for posting to my Movable Type Blog. It was buggy, but I was lured into fixing the issues and then I found myself using it. I even changed my site to use tags over categories because it was more flexible and MarsEdit could not handle Tags. Damnit TextMate, even more work I had to do!
I'm really annoyed at the HTML include function. It was not handling " in variables, until I realized that oh I really should be using single quotes anyway. Shoot that TextMate for making me use proper quoting in my include files.
Oh! And it remembers what files I had open when I quit! WHAT IS UP WITH THAT! I was writing this steamy letter to my girlfriend in markdown (What girl doesn't love markdown syntax) and then I went to a friend's place. I fired up TextMate to edit a config file and there was my steamy letter! Grrrr! Oh wait, that didn't happen. but it does open the files I was last working on in my Xcode projects and saves me a bunch of time. Damnit, now I have to WORK vs. playing recent menu chicken dance!
I'm really annoyed that I can modify a bundle and keep a local version of just the changes, and they merge with fixes to other bundle bits with software updates. Where is the fun in that?
And since the blogging bundle was written in Ruby, which I had never used before, I had to LEARN Ruby to extend it. To hell with you Textmate for giving me a fun excuse to learn a new language!
I can't even begin to tell you how much time I have wasted watching screencasts only to learn something useful. Sheesh!
Oh how could I forget full keyboard navigation. I find myself in Mail.app bonking and beeping because I'm pressing keys it doesn't know about. grr!
I should just go back to TextEdit.
Steve
You should RTFM before writing such a rant, or you may look stupid. Guess it's too late.
- CLI: mate (Check "Terminal Usage" under the Help menu) - Multiple files: Scratch projects: mate folder or mate file1 file2, you can then save them as a Project if you want. - Beep: If you try to fold outside of a foldable block you obviously get a beep. What else do you want? I'd hate to have a warning if I accidently typed F1!
About the "TextMate Help", it uses the central OS X help system and search works normally. Maybe you should check your system. BTW, if you never used the Help system, you must be really new to the Mac and you should read... the help files.
9 answers to your first post on the list, congrats, you just found a lot of friends. ;)
-- FredB
On Mar 6, 2007, at 12:58 PM, tlm wrote:
I just gave TextMate a try...
I'm sorry to say it was simply awful...
(Yes, I know that one can navigate a GUI with the keyboard, but it is awkward at best, not the kind of action I want to perform often.)
While there are things in TextMate that drive me crazy too (having to create a project window to group windows together, and its Go To Header/Source functionality is a bit wrong), consider that if TextMate we really bad then nobody would use it. B*tch'n at the developer and wanting to send him to jail is a great way to get your ideas implemented (although as the target of things like that before it has motivated me on occasion out of anger.)
Please go back to using Emacs, as I suspect you'd hate BBEdit even more than you do TextMate.
Godspeed, _Ryan Wilcox
We deeply apologize that our beloved editor didn't meet up with your high standards of excellence. Please use something else instead. Goodbye.
We will deeply miss you :'(
thomas Aylott — subtleGradient — CrazyEgg — sixteenColors
On Mar 6, 2007, at 12:58 PM, tlm wrote:
I just gave TextMate a try...
Please see: http://www.firelily.com/support/depression/trolls.html
and quit feeding the fire.
One of the most effective trolls I've seen in a long while; you'd think list members could have been tipped off by someone who actually subscribed to the users mailing list after using the application for no more than two minutes...
We've got self-contradictory complaints ("How dare files open in separate windows!"/"The interface should be completely intuitive for new users!"), vague and easily-refuted shortcomings ("I want to open a file using the keyboard! But without Command-O! Or the terminal!"), disingenuous incredulity ("I can't believe the help system would be so arcane!" from an Emacs user), and outright insults for both the developer and the entire user community.
In fact, I'd say the main weakness of the posting is that he accidentally hit on a couple of genuine issues in TM. The foldings system---although elegant---just isn't sophisticated enough (but I think all Python users have realized this), and the project-vs- multiple-window system is genuinely challenging for new users---I'm still having trouble figuring it out completely, and while I may ultimately decide that it does actually work just how I'd like it's been frustrating getting used to it.
I don't think TextMate is perfect, but I think $50 was a bargain for the best text editor I've ever used. I'd pay again for a version which addressed the above shortcomings. (As well as fixing char-by- char undo. Has anyone ever mentioned that?)
-rob
On 6 Mar 2007, at 17:58, tlm wrote:
I just gave TextMate a try...
I'm sorry to say it was simply awful, which brings me up against the troubling paradox of TextMate's growing popularity. This is truly a big conundrum for me, one that I'd love to figure out...
The first thing I learn about working with TextMate is that to open a file I need to use a GUI. This is a bad start. I, and all other programmers I know, hate to use the mouse while coding, so I must conclude that TM's developers just do not know their target market. A very bad sign indeed. (Yes, I know that one can navigate a GUI with the keyboard, but it is awkward at best, not the kind of action I want to perform often.)
Fine, let's use the mouse. I open an HTML file and a JavaScript file. Now I have TWO windows open. Good grief... Let's see, in my typical coding session I work on at least a dozen buffers at any one time. So I suppose that, if I were using TextMate as my text editor, I'd have to wade through at least a dozen windows cluttering my desktop... Strike 2.
In the first 60 seconds or so, TextMate has already managed to look pretty darn awful to me, but I continue on the optimistic assumption that all the flaws I have found so far (which are deal breakers AFAIC) can be "customized away". (If so my only remaining misgiving would be regarding the supreme lack of customer awareness responsible for not having these hypothetical customizations as standard-out-of-the-box in the first place.)
But what followed is simply inexcusable.
I visit the JavaScript file and start using F1 to fold blocks of code. The third or fourth one of these F1s results in a beep (and no folding of the block), but no error message is visible anywhere, nor is any other indication of what TextMate is having a problem with.
Signalling an error without telling the user what the error is is an example ATROCIOUS software design. Revoke the developers' licenses, and put them all in jail for software engineering malpractice...
Seriously now, by this point I was already truly astonished that I ever even heard of TextMate to begin with.
After scanning the menus and the preferences and finding no clue on why the beep, I decide to try TextMate Help under the Help menu. I search for "beep" and get nothing; then I search for "error", and get a few hits. When I visit one of them, there's a lot of stuff on the page, nothing obviously devoted to errors, so I hit Cmd-F to search for the word "error", and all I get is yet another beep. The same thing happens when I visit other pages in the original results list.
What's going on here? Things have been bad enough so far that I'm suspecting the unthinkable, I'm suspecting that maybe TextMate's HELP pages are not accessible to Cmd-F. To test this hypothesis, I use Cmd-F to search for a word that I can clearly see on the page in front of me. Again, I get a beep. Whaddya know?
Please someone tell me how can it be that software like this is not only for sale, but actually SELLING??? What did I miss?
tlm
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