<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV><DIV>On Dec 6, 2006, at 8:15 PM, William D. Neumann wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Jacob Rus wrote:</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Three reasons:</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">1. It serves very little useful need.</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">The need it serves seems more to be providing useful documentation regarding the types and purpose of the parameters than to save on typing. Which, according to section 7.1 of the textmate help is a valid reason for using a snippet.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Man pages already exist to document this stuff. Having more documentation of the same stuff isn't any better.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">2. The things which are in the subversion repository represent the consensus of the TextMate community.</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Really?<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Since when?<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I don't remember getting any ballots to help judge the consensus.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>And as far as I can tell, yours is the only complaint so far against the C Library bundle.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Do your wishes now equal community consensus?</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>There's been discussion all day on the IRC channel about your bundle. It's not just Jacob that doesn't like this.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">3. It is not impossibly difficult to make a completion command which is vastly more useful, can be pushed into the existing C bundle (meaning I don't need to go to my list and filter something else out), works the way users coming from other editors would expect it to, is more flexible (i.e. can be adapted for unanticipated libraries), and is just in every respect better.</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">"It doesn't work as well as it could" <> "compelling reason to delete".<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I think most folk here would agree that the current syntax definition system isn't working as well as it could.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Should we just go ahead and scrap all bundles that contain a syntax definition?</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>That's a ridiculous exaggeration.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">4. I'll toss in a fourth reason: it's inelegant.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Its very existence bothers the soul of this TextMate user.</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Which is about as compelling a reason for deletion as "I don't personally use language X,"<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>if that's the case, I can give you a huge list of bundles that I'd appreciate if you could delete as well.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>It bothers the soul of this TextMate user as well. There's a big difference between saying "I don't use that" and saying "the mere fact that it exists bothers me".</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">I don't care about any of these reasons.</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">So?<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Pretty much the only discussions I see before new bundles appear are along the lines of:</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">A: Hey, is there a bundle for X?</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">B: Nope.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Why don't you whip one up and add it to the repository?</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>That's because most bundles aren't comprised of 1300 snippets. Usually this sort of talk is about creating a bundles for a new language, which in the general case there's no need for discussion about.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Mainly, it should have never been added.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>There was no discussion before it went in, and I would imagine that within 3-4 days, a better solution will exist, as there are plenty of enterprising users on this list who could make such a thing happen.</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">So why not leave it in until those better solutions appear?</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><DIV>Because it causes problems. Your bundle is 5.3MB in size (not counting the .svn metadata). This is a pretty big chunk of stuff to download for everybody doing a simple `svn update`. For comparison, the entire repository (minus your bundle) is only 43MB (again, not counting the .svn metadata). I for one have been putting off updating my checkout until your bundle has been removed.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>If you want an uncommon but reasonable example of how your bundle might cause problems, think of user Joe Shmoe who has a repository checkout and is on dialup most of the day. Sure, the checkout itself is large, but he got it by letting svn work overnight (or perhaps he was at his friend's house with DSL). But he updates his checkout regularly over dialup, since the vast majority of updates are small in size, and doing it regularly means each individual checkout doesn't take long. Now he tries to update after your commit, and, oops, that's a few hours wasted while svn updates. And he doesn't want to cancel it because that would just mean he has to do it later.</DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>-- </DIV><DIV>Kevin Ballard</DIV><DIV><A href="http://kevin.sb.org">http://kevin.sb.org</A></DIV><DIV><A href="mailto:kevin@sb.org">kevin@sb.org</A></DIV><DIV><A href="http://www.tildesoft.com">http://www.tildesoft.com</A></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>